RANT HERE

[Peter Voice]

If I were eloquent enough, I would write something like this http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...333477336.html about the "war on evil". This article has been described as "speaking the unspeakable" and was published in the Weekend Magazine of the most respected daily newspaper in Australia.

Richard Neville's name may not mean a lot to many of the Nth. American readers here, but in the late 60's-early 70's, he was co-publisher of "Oz" magazine (21yrs old) in London and spent time in jail whilst successfully fighting Britain's censorship laws. His research and reputation are unequalled in Britain and Australia.

Let me know if any of you read all the way through to the Peaceful Tomorrows. I think I'll join.

[ 04-16-2002: Message edited by: Peter Voice ]</p>

[Triona]

Well Peter I read the article. He's a long-winded SOB. I find his article the blatherings of an old hippie who thinks that we should all join communes and grow daisies.

I wonder how he would have felt if it had been a member or members of his family that were sitting in their office on a bright sunny morning when their lives were horribly ended by religious fanatics from a group that most people hadn't really heard of. I wonder how he would have felt if his spouse called him from their flight telling him they've been hijacked and telling him they love him just before their plane smashed into the side of a building.

When the IRA set of bombs in London, they were attacking a country that has denied their freedom for centuries. The US is not taxing the Al-Quadi, nor did we claim them as part of our country.

I find it interesting that so much of the anti-war sentiment is coming out of countries that have not been affected by acts of terrorism.

This group is an insult to all those who lost their lives on 9/11.

[Doctor Eric]

I hate to have to do this, but...

Triona, I don't think that there is anyone here that does not realize that over 5000 innocent americans were killed on that day, but, do not for even a second, think that some wingnut group in the middle-east was able to pull the whole thing off without help... alot of it. If you are wondering exactly what I am talking about, just stop and think about the man who has been in charge of this country for at least 22 years, never mind the 10 before that that he was head of the cia (read that as "Highly skilled and trained assassin"). Ever since 9/11 no one is talking about the rigged election, the terrorism that our gov't commits every day (quite often against it's own citezens), or the fact that anti-muslim/-middle eastern sympathies and out and out racism are now socially acceptable. The sources on what has happened are the same that told us "Bush Victorious!", "Eugene Anarchists Destroy Downtown Seattle" and quite a few choice bits about Waco. Don't lose sight of the basic principles of misdirection that are being employed in the media right now, as the media and the US gov't are standing there with the blood of 5000 American citezens on their hands....

Sorry, the subject is "RANT HERE" is it not?
(glad I got that off my chest...)

[ 04-16-2002: Message edited by: Doctor Eric ]</p>

[martin ewen]

april 16th new york times ( not so subtle republican propoganda lickspittle toiletpaper)
"Officials estimate that as of yesterday, 3,048 had died, or were missing and presumed dead as a result of the sept 11 attacks-(not including the 19 hijackers)
5000+ sort of punctures your cred before you've even got a head of steam.
The day a cocooned reactionary apple pie rightwing simpleton and a misinformed leftwing conspiracy theriorist are able to do anything but parrot their firmly held opinions in an astonishingly unoriginal display of semi-coherent premasticated blather, Is the day this topic becomes anything other than venting for the ill informed and passionate.
(mmmmm. nice to be back)

[Brian Wilson]

A statistic that's been bugging me as well.. Not all of those "5,000" causalties were American.

[Jim]

[quote]Originally posted by martin ewen:
<strong>
The day a cocooned reactionary apple pie rightwing simpleton and a misinformed leftwing conspiracy theriorist are able to do anything but parrot their firmly held opinions in an astonishingly unoriginal display of semi-coherent premasticated blather, Is the day this topic becomes anything other than venting for the ill informed and passionate.
(mmmmm. nice to be back)</strong><hr></blockquote>

Good to have you back, Martin.

Jim

[Peter Voice]

Wow Triona, such well considered words. How do you know Richard Neville's mother is a bitch. Have you met her? Which group are you saying is an insult to the victims of Sept 11, "Families for Peaceful Tomorrows" (Did you read that far?) or the members of performers.net.

You comments offer no facts or arguments to refute those in the article, just baseless opinions, delivered in the manner of a petulant child that has just been told the world does not revolve around it.

I posted this article because I sincerely believe it warrants considered analysis and discussion. If this is too hard for you, they have a very nice little chat room at disneyworld.com that you might find more comfortable.

[Doctor Eric]

Let me just apologize for my previous post by mentioning that some times keyboards give me Tourettes Syndrome....

[Triona]

Peter, I meant the "Families for Peaceful Tomorrows", not P.net (yes I read that far). I'm sorry you feel my opinions are baseless. They're actually based on a large hole that is sitting in Lower Manhattan where the Trade Centers used to be. They are based on the friends whose lives were changed forever because they watched their co-workers die. They're based on a friend who is in a mental institution and will probably never come home because he had a burning body land on the ground in front of him while he was running for his life. That's what my opinions are based on.

Now I realize that there are people sitting in little villages somewhere in Afghanistan that feel the same way I do now. There in lies the problem. Neither they nor I had anything to do with the folks who have brought grief on us. Yes, the US government put a dangerous dog in Afghanistan (the Taliban) thinking they could control it. When they got bit, they then started shooting all the dogs in the neighborhood because they needed to kill the one. Ironically, the one most in need of killing has apparently gotten away. So what do you do about it? If you don't respond, they'll just keep on attacking (see Israel) and if you do, the world calls you names. We're damned either way so I feel it's right to go with the response that will try and protect our country (or at least show that we're not going to put up with it).

Like I said in my first post, this is idealism from a person living in a country that has never, at least to my knowledge, ever undergone a major terrorist attack. As long as the people in the middle don't care (Al Quaida, Fatah, Hamas, etc.) there's no way to stop it, and I'm not holding my breath for any of these groups to ever care.

Martin, I'm not a cocooned right-winger, I'm somebody who's angry that my tax dollars were supporting people who tried to kill a lot of my friends (the hijackers were on welfare). I'm angry that my tax dollars go to help support damn near every country on this planet, especially when people from those countries bash mine, and I see homeless and hungry people living on the streets of my city. At this point, I think I have a right to be angry.

Dr. Eric, did you read the article? Just curious...

Brian, yes I know there were people from other countries killed in the attacks, but it was on American soil. Please forgive my imperialistic attitude, but it's my home dammit.

P.S. My apologies to Richard's Neville's mother, she may be a very nice lady. Her son, however, is an idealogical yahoo who's probably being sponsored in some way by American money, yet will bite the hand that feeds him.

[Triona]

[quote]Originally posted by martin ewen:
<strong>"Officials estimate that as of yesterday, 3,048 had died, or were missing and presumed dead as a result of the sept 11 attacks-(not including the 19 hijackers)</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah we got lucky, if that's what you want to call it. Over 50,000 people used to work in those buildings. We were sure there would be tens of thousands dead on 9/11, but thank, whatever higher power you believe in, it was a lot less.

[Chance]

My first impressions after reading this article just now?

...I think it is too much effort to read thru in one setting what must have taken the author 20 to write it.

...As an author he is an excellent compiler; as a compiler he is an excellent protagonist.

...He is as well spoken and informed as can be expected of any professional writer -- especially considering the host of researchers and editors which no doubt chip in -- but he is by no means eloquent or even particularly persuasive.

...After reading the fragments he has collected and distilled from literally dozens of other investigative journalists, I was left wondering where in the world I must look in order to find something resembling original investigative journalism.

...This leaves me questioning this man's ability to think critically. He can parrot well enough, but what of his own ability to sift chaft from wheat? So far, using this article as an example, he has failed this demonstration miserably.

...There can be no doubting his earnestness -- but this article, filled as it is with the distilled efforts and "sound bites" of literally dozens of other investigative journalists, it still seems completely devoid of any original thought of his own. In other words, take away the outside quotes and bites found in this article, and just about all you will have left standing is the header and by-line. Beyond collecting and distilling the thoughts and informations of maybe 60 other journalists what has he done?

...And for all the earnestness, what does he offer by way of a solution? I see a lot of finger pointing, speculation, innuendo, and downright accusing -- but nothing else. For all of the suppossed interest he has shown, for all the angst and hours of time invested, for all the sleepless nights agonizing over how best to present his "speaking the unspeakable"... does he dare to offer even the tiniest morsel of hope, the smallest of solutions? No, I'm afraid not. The article's ending -- which is where he is required to place all these pent-up answers for mankind after so much build up and fanfare -- was such an anti-climax that I thought it continued on another page. He offers nothing more than his own personal feelings of helplessness, frustration and impotence -- the same as we all feel -- no more, no less.

...As for all his anti-USA hyperbole, would someone please direct me to a regime, any regime boasting at least indoor plumbing, which has not engaged in nation building, rampant nationalism or dubious political intrigue during the past 500 years? Or perhaps direct me to the other 50 or so countries also doing it as we speak, yet enjoying the shadows from all the attention the USA is receiving at the moment? So the USA happens to be the biggest target, the tallest flower in the field ...at the moment. So what? Wait 100 years and there will be a new guy to cut down.

[martin ewen]

What high handed empty headed bollocks.
If originality outranks multiply sourced and confirmed data then Israel is actually a large piece of curdled cheese and the palestinians are an abandoned childs bicycle.
As to giving hope in an obviously hopeless situation, unless the journalist works for disney its not really in the job description.

"Beyond collecting and distilling the thoughts and informations of maybe 60 other journalists what has he done?"

What you expect him to come up with a fucking solution!
-Sorry you are a bad journalist because you don't have a cure for what you are reporting on.
Absolute irrelevent critisism for the sake of your own tired grandstanding.
Did you or do you ever stop and consider whether anyone in the world cares about what you personally find "eloquent or even particularly persuasive."
Your a fucking entertainer, get over yourself you pompous deluded puffed up piece of poorly disguised self inflating ego wank ,masquerading as what I don't know, its all so transparent.

As to the fact that you don't actually refute anything but merely justify injustice by remarking that everyone else is doing it and any country with power always has clearly marks you as a smug apologist with nothing constructive to say.
The hypocrisy evident in criticising others for not offering solutions while you take the snide, offhand, self satisfied, 'the status quo's my friend' option reveals more about you than any half arsed critisism you may extend to others.

[Peter Voice]

Chance, it is not a journalist's job to editorialise or make subjective comments (the editor is the only person in any paper with this privilege). If it is not a journalists job to thouroughly research his subject via other reliable and traceable sources (and explain them, which may seem longwinded and irksome to those with short concentration spans), what are they supposed to do? Make it up?

If a journo was writing an informed article about bowel cancer, would he/she not just be compiling and composing the research of other's or do you expect him to immediately enter a lab, start his own testing methods and of course find the solution?

Good journalism presents the facts and their sources without opinion so that the reader can make their own judgements. The only room to move, that the writer really has, is the perspective from which he presents the material.

Triona and yourself seem to have more problem with Richard's perspective than with any of the factual content of the article. Neither of you seem at all concerned that accusations levelled are all true. Is it so strange that some-one who lives outside the US would have a different perspective?

Triona, the US bothers itself little with events in the rest of the world unless they hurt it's own interests. Australia has had several bombings and attacks, the Commonwealth Head of Governments Meeting at the Sydney Hilton was bombed, the main Melb. Police Station bombed, letter bombs in Gov't mail in Adelaide and Canberra and more.

[ 04-17-2002: Message edited by: Peter Voice ]</p>

[Chance]

So if all I do is surf the web, take notes from dozens of other news sources and lump my findings into a single, very long winded thesis then I am entitled to call myself an investigative reporter? Sure sounds like it.

Otherwise Peter, you asked for this particular article to be read (and at one hour reading time, not such a simple request) and you likewise encouraged debate. So support your views on the article, don't just lambast my take on it. That goes double for Martin.

After all, you knew it was going to be controversial going in, right? And so it is.

At least Triona and I are engaging in open debate about the subject at hand, not merely attacking those who disagree with our views; and I didn't attack anyone at any time.

Would to God that this same energy would be spent on the other threads, the threads where busking related dialog is suppossed to happen... Funny how it just never seems to get that far.

[Mr.Taxi Trix]

Chance, this part of the article read like poetry to me:

"School of the Americas, which makes the al-Qaeda camps seem like a Teletubbies picnic."

I thought that fairly good, actually, like this one:

"the missiles have continued to rain upon Taliban and toddler alike."

Nice alliteration, wot? I don't think that was unoriginal. He also proposes solutions, actually. Here's that:

"Such a spirit may jolt Americans to consider the rest of the world's pain, as it jolts me to honour that country's ongoing contribution to the evolution and celebration of humanity.
Like the 17 founding families of Peaceful Tomorrows, it is time to transcend the belligerent imperialism of Old Guard America that is prepared to ravage the whole of earth in order to foster, for its spoilt elite, a lifestyle of careless opulence.
The promise of globalisation is a shared destiny of nations working together to minimise conflict and poverty, restore ecosystems, reduce emissions, ban arms trafficking and thrash out an evolving agenda of ethics and fairness to which all can be a party, especially the strong. Its deeper meaning is a belated awareness that we are all connected - and connected in a deeper way than the choice of being with America or against America, of being a target market, or a target."

So, I disagree with your position on the article. Did it really take you an hour? Admit it, you got up and made yourself a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, didn't you? I did.

Peter, it is an interesting and eye-opening article. One thing I certainly didn't know, (Washington handed the Taliban $US42 million to suppress the cultivation of opium poppies, now back in bloom.) got me to wondering if they would fund p.net to suppress LDR's cultivation of exclamation marks. We could make a nice hat there.

Shortly after the towers fell, when Bush claimed we were in a war between good and evil, he eclipsed the shame once heaped on us by his power-hurling papa, who in his day, bested even Martin's 10 foot high spewfest. "Good and evil. Super flames. Damn, that seals it ", thought I, "Do I have a can opener in the bomb shelter. Hell, do I have a bomb shelter?" (I went on to ask, "Who is this, who is asking if he has a bomb shelter?" but that's for another thread.)

In the one month of silence which followed, respect for Washington grew in me. "For the first time ever, I am witnessing leadership in America" says I to myself. It felt to me that we hung in the balance. I hoped we were tipping towards understanding.
We were not. I have no solution, of course, no answer to the 9/11 act, but I know pouring gasoline on a fire when I see it, though it be crafted to look like water.

All in all, I feel a great sadness when read an article like that. Sadness and a familiar anger, when I look at what goes on in the world today. The same sadness, in fact, that slowly curled around me, until I left the activist game behind me 10 years ago. Cultivating blindness, I see more laughs. Some days, though, I long for a good protest. When that longing comes, I wait for it to pass, that I may farm for more glee.

*

[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: Mr.Taxi Trix ]</p>