New York

[Paul Garbanzo]

just to throw my own inflammatory remarks into the mix, I would agree with worldwidese that it's all about the money.

but nobody brought up the point that osama bin ladin is a family member of one of the richest families in Saudi Arabia. that sucker inherited half a billion dollars from his family before he went all cuckoo for cocoa-puffs.

he's nothing but a spoiled rich brat who was upset that he didn't get a hero's welcome when he came home to Saudi after fighting the soviets in Afghanistan. he was also pissed that the US (i.e. the unbelievin' heathen) was in Saudi (i.e. Mecca and Medina, you know, those really holy sites) to help get Saddam out of Kuwait.

I agree that American foreign policy is generally fooked, and anyone (unfortunately) can be president. But to blame it just on the inbalance of money is not looking at the whole picture.

and another thing... who supplies the most food and medical supplies to Afganistan? the US. I think the US would be considered kind and benevolent if we keep up the food supply. I suggest dropping 100 lb. bags of wheat out of a plane.... without a parachute.

oddly enough there are now ..what.. 2 million people fleeing their homes in Afghanistan? Osama seems to have terrorized the afghans as well.. causing major havoc.. that was smart. let's hear it for ruining whatever economy the Taliban hoped to have... nice goin' Osama!

anyway, if you want the conspiracy tip, think back to when we liked the mujahadin (sp) and when the CIA director (hey, wasn't that Bush Senior right before he was vice prez?) was throwin' down the major stacks of cash and weapons to go help our fellow anti-commies? you can kinda go from there with the New World Order conspiracy...

ok, if you've gotten this far, you're probably thinking "what side is this guy on?". I'd just have to say that if I had half a billion dollars, I'd be on any side I wanna be on! SO THERE!


[This message has been edited by Paul Garbanzo (edited 10-01-2001).]

[Triona]

Yeah Paul!

[willie the clown]

perhaps some of you will actuaaly read this missive.
as they beat the drums and wave the flag,i can only wonder who'll be the ones to make the money off of this event. our military may have been sleeping,who could of expected this anyway, but the media was sure awake!
if we as a people are " going after" this osama fellow, what evidence do we really have? i mean he may not be the nicest fellow around but at least he's entitled to a fair trial.
all the parties responsible for say the locherby bombing, and not to mention our own home grown terrorist mr. mcvey, all got a trial,and so did the first bombers of the wtc. so i guess we will give him the same treatment, or are we just going to blow the shit out of another country of brown people?
like deep throat said follow the money! perhaps gw wants to finish his daddies business?
if we can give these people a fair trial, if we can find them, will we have shown the world a higher ethical standard, and perhaps lead the way into a more enlightened headspace or perhaps not.
anger and revenge is a choice, and they both have a time and place,only we can choose when and where,and refuse to lower ourselves to the standards of barbarians.
will the loss of life to afghan's bring back any one of our dead?
the thing is that war gave us most of our art,literature, and stories, in order to save the princess you've got to kick somebodies ass, is it just in our nature?
war has also given us the chance to choose the enlightened path and to show humanities beauty, i.e. the savage destruction opposed to the valiant police and firemen.they put aside there own self intrest and went to the aid of others, is'nt that what made them heros? they were not waving any flag at all ,just trying to save their brotherman. we can all learnb alot from that.
perhaps it's more important to realize that man is a fragile and foolish animal,who inspite of his ignorance makes progress towards enlightenment, one mind at a time.
we can set the example by choosing the right action to flow through us and speaking our minds in public forums, keeping an eye on our leaders, defending our civil liberties and manning the barricades when needed!
as street performers, we have the floor and the ears of the world. a direct forum to the common man. so i have dusted of those old protest songs, gave them a twist, put the hat away, and sang the songs for freedom for the common man,and economic liberty here in bumf**k kansas.
in summation, i quote an irish rebel song named the patriot game
'' come all you old rebels, and list while i sing.
the love of ones country is a terrible thing,
it banishes fear, like the speed of a flame, and makes us all part of the patriot game.''
if anybody can show us how not to deal with terrorist it would be the irish.where did force of arms get any of them?
well, my soap box is cracking, so go out and spread a little sunshine where ever you are, friends, and keep watching the skies. willie

[jonnyflash]

Military Invasions/Coups/Election rigging/Terror and torture/Infiltration
China,1945-1960's
Italy 1947-1948
Greece 1947-1952
Phillipines 1940s and 1950s
Korea 1945-1953
Albania 1949-1953
Eastern Europe 1948-1956
Germany 1950s
Iran 1953
Guatemala 1953-1954
Costa Rica 1955
Syria 1956-1957
Middle East 1957=1958
Indonesia 1957-1958
Western Europe 195os and 1960s
Soviet Union 1917-1989
Italy 1950s to 1970s
Viet Nam 1950-1973
Cambodia 1955-1973
Laos 1957-1973
Haiti 1959-1963
Guatemala again 1960
Algeria 1960s
Ecuador 1960-1963
and on and on.
My hands are getting tired of writing the dates of US military and CIA interventions since WW2.I'm only up to the mid 1960s.Their latest violent scheme is to trick americans into supporting yet another civilian bloodbath in a 3rd world country.How can anyone claim these are the acts of a "great protector of civilization"?This type of indiscriminate killing will create even more angry orphans looking to attack the country that killed their family with fire from the sky before their very eyes.Because
the people of the US can not vote for any of these atrocities,or even have a say(democracy?),they cannot be blamed.It is the US Gov't with the oceans of blood on it's hands.Anyone exposed to the facts will definitely be against the US Govt's policies of terror.You can be anti-US Govt and anti terrorist at the same time.In fact,since the US govt is a terrorist govt by any reasonable definition,it's impossible not to be.

[Danny Hustle]

Yes Johnny, we understand, and Elvis visited your spacecraft.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by jonnyflash:
Military Invasions/Coups/Election rigging/Terror and torture/Infiltration
China,1945-1960's
Italy 1947-1948
Greece 1947-1952
Phillipines 1940s and 1950s
Korea 1945-1953
Albania 1949-1953
Eastern Europe 1948-1956
Germany 1950s
Iran 1953
Guatemala 1953-1954
Costa Rica 1955
Syria 1956-1957
Middle East 1957=1958
Indonesia 1957-1958
Western Europe 195os and 1960s
Soviet Union 1917-1989
Italy 1950s to 1970s
Viet Nam 1950-1973
Cambodia 1955-1973
Laos 1957-1973
Haiti 1959-1963
Guatemala again 1960
Algeria 1960s
Ecuador 1960-1963
and on and on.
My hands are getting tired of writing the dates of US military and CIA interventions since WW2.I'm only up to the mid 1960s.Their latest violent scheme is to trick americans into supporting yet another civilian bloodbath in a 3rd world country.How can anyone claim these are the acts of a "great protector of civilization"?This type of indiscriminate killing will create even more angry orphans looking to attack the country that killed their family with fire from the sky before their very eyes.Because
the people of the US can not vote for any of these atrocities,or even have a say(democracy?),they cannot be blamed.It is the US Gov't with the oceans of blood on it's hands.Anyone exposed to the facts will definitely be against the US Govt's policies of terror.You can be anti-US Govt and anti terrorist at the same time.In fact,since the US govt is a terrorist govt by any reasonable definition,it's impossible not to be.

[AJJames]

well done johhny flash ,
Danny , Triona,
sorry if you didn't get the irony , you missed my sentiment, I should have been clearer , I am not saying that all Americans are blood thirsty , arrogant and racsist, infact the most informative links regarding the truth behind the U.S goverment and its agencies are produced by Americans. I am not just bashing americans, the british goverment is just as guilty.And the french, germans ,italians etc
Danny , if I sound like a hypocrite to you for appearing to judge a whole nation on the comments of one or two misinformed racists, well you too are a hypocrite for judging my politics on one comment.
Triona I'm sorry about your friend , you ask if I knew anyone who worked there,the answer is no, but both of my brothers visited the towers a week before the attack, I didn't know for 24 hours if one of my brothers was still in new york.
However emotional you are, vengeance is not yours nor is it your goverment's, it is gods and gods alone.
triona , you are obviously so misinformed about the nature of the world I suggest you go on a world tour ,you desperately need to experience a non-american reality.
For your information regardin us foreign aid,
the united nations passed resolutions for western nation's foreign aid contributions,
the targets were that the U.S and some rich European countries were to donate 0.7% of their GNP (gross national Product) to U.N aid projects.
In the end the USA donated about 0.1% of their GNP, the lowest percentage of any of the aid giving countries.
Lets get your big mouth claims of holding up the rest of the world in perspective shall we!
to use johnny flash's analogy; it's like a band-aid on a shot gun wound,
get real

[AJJames]

Danny,
what planet are you on? what kind of response to Johnny's post is that, what the fuck has Elvis and Space-craft got to do with this discussion?
Is this level of total and utter denial of the truth prevelent in your culture?
I might not respect your opinion but I respect your right to have one and I enter into reasonable and rational dialogue with you and any one who cares enough to express what's on their minds. If you have anything sensible to say , anything that might extend our knowledge like Johnny Flash has, then I for one would like to hear it , if not then leave the rest of us some room to have an intelligent discussion.

[Todd]

Bravo AJ. Dannys banal message seemed to be posted just to annoy. Moronic drivel.

Here is my question to all the posters on this thread (and my question to most people these days):
To all of you who have these strong feelings and opinions, what are you doing about them? What are you doing to make this world a better place? To correct the wrongs you see? I will defend anyone and everyones right to have an opinion, but there comes a point where you have to stop talking and start doing.
So what are you doing?

Please keep in mind I'm not tossing barbs at anyone on here who has expressed thier opinion (after all this is a message board set up to express opinion).(Ok sorry, Dannys post was pretty dumb, but otherwise this has been a good discussion) I simply want to know, are you taking steps in your own life and your own world to help fix the things you see wrong?

[Danny Hustle]

I am not a Hypocrite to base my opinion of you by inflammatory remarks you made. How is that hypocritical? You've lost me. You were making wild generalizations about a country full of people. That is whacked. That is the same as making wild generalizations about someone based on race or religion. If I misunderstood your comment then I would be mistaken, I would not be a hypocrite.

As far as your statistical data is concerned Mark Twain had a wonderful statement about statistics. He said, "There are three kinds of lies, Lies, damnable lies, and statistics."

I am an American. I live in the Boston area. I lost two very good friends that I worked with every day on those planes. Myra Aronson and Graham Berkely were people I spent time with. They were not just a couple of blurry yearbook photos from CNN. My former boss Peter Gay was also on one of those planes. He was a nice guy with a nice family.

My brother flew this same flight 2 weeks before the attack and if the cards had been dealt a little differently I could have been on one of those planes that bright Tuesday morning. For most people that would hit a little too close to home, non?

These people I knew were vaporized along with several thousand other people (not just Americans) most before they had their morning cup of coffee. They were killed by hate filled, propaganda spouting, psychos.

But, I don't hate them, I am not angry, I don't want revenge, I don't think every Muslim is a terrorist anymore than I think every white Christian is a member of the KKK.

What I do know is several thousand people are dead. Moms, Dads, Brother, Sisters, Lovers, and friends.

You and your pals seem to think America brought this on themselves. To that I say fuck you. To that I say you go down to ground zero and hold some mother's hand while she is searching for any piece of her dead son. You do that you heartless fuck and then come back and tell me how this is all America's fault.

This is not the time to armchair quarterback this country. This is not the time to be spouting erroneous and inflammatory propaganda about this country.

If you want to talk shit about America why not use the hard well known facts? They are better than any of the half truths Mr. Flash is bringing up.

You want to hear a great American Horror story? Pull up a chair boys and girls because uncle Dan is going to tell you a bald faced fact so horrific it should give you nightmares.

In the mid 1940's a former haberdasher from Missouri dropped a thermonuclear device on a civilian target in Hiroshima Japan. Not getting the prescribed response he was hoping for, he had another one dropped a few days later on the friendly civilians of Nagasaki. Both targets were specifically targeted because they were civilian.

My opinion is old Harry wanted to make a point. His point was, We know your soldiers are willing to die fighting for what they belive is the good fight. But, are they willing to have their entire bloodline turned to dust?

No other country on this planet has ever used a nuclear device in war time, much less on civilians.

That is a story that should make your blood run cold.

I find it funny that you think you are qualified to comment on what type of "reality" we need when you don't know the first thing about being an American. It is like telling a black man to get a non black "reality". Do you see how insulting that is? probably not, the ignorant rarely do. Also for what it's worth, most of what you call "the truth" I call horse shit. If you put kittens in an oven it doesn't make them biscuits. You, my misinformed friend need to get a more "American reality". Maybe it will help you with this superiority complex you seem to have.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by AJJames:
well done johhny flash ,
Danny , Triona,
sorry if you didn't get the irony , you missed my sentiment, I should have been clearer , I am not saying that all Americans are blood thirsty , arrogant and racsist, infact the most informative links regarding the truth behind the U.S goverment and its agencies are produced by Americans. I am not just bashing americans, the british goverment is just as guilty.And the french, germans ,italians etc
Danny , if I sound like a hypocrite to you for appearing to judge a whole nation on the comments of one or two misinformed racists, well you too are a hypocrite for judging my politics on one comment.
Triona I'm sorry about your friend , you ask if I knew anyone who worked there,the answer is no, but both of my brothers visited the towers a week before the attack, I didn't know for 24 hours if one of my brothers was still in new york.
However emotional you are, vengeance is not yours nor is it your goverment's, it is gods and gods alone.
triona , you are obviously so misinformed about the nature of the world I suggest you go on a world tour ,you desperately need to experience a non-american reality.
For your information regardin us foreign aid,
the united nations passed resolutions for western nation's foreign aid contributions,
the targets were that the U.S and some rich European countries were to donate 0.7% of their GNP (gross national Product) to U.N aid projects.
In the end the USA donated about 0.1% of their GNP, the lowest percentage of any of the aid giving countries.
Lets get your big mouth claims of holding up the rest of the world in perspective shall we!
to use johnny flash's analogy; it's like a band-aid on a shot gun wound,
get real

[This message has been edited by Danny Hustle (edited 10-04-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Danny Hustle (edited 10-04-2001).]

[martin ewen]

I can't resist, its a weakness.
You come full circle so masterfully I suspect you're a semi transparent prank.
To make generalisations about a country full of people is 'Whack' and then to finish with cold blooded pride re hiroshima and a 'watch out were americans..grrr' thing at the end.
Silly but brilliant.
Everyone knows true americans play the banjo, have no eyelids and follow their sisters into the backroom.(in the event any americans think last statement literal, please go to nearest electrical outlet and insert fork)

[willie the clown]

dear dear people, do you all really believe the crap that comes out of your radio's and t.v's. you should know better. as we all know,the media is the master of illusion and smoke and mirrors. i mean is'nt media manipulation one of our basic skills?
if we can fool some of the people all of the time whats to stop them(THE ALPHABET PEOPLE,CIA DEA KGB,NSC ETC,) from doing worse.
they have created the perfect enemy, unseen faceless and among you!ask anyone of middle eastern extraction if they are scared. talk about terrorism, whose calling the kettle black?
so what the hell are we going to do about any of this? not a damn thing! unless we willing to fight the( your favorite evil here).maybe,we can sit back and learn to juggle hand grenades without the pins,then we might be able to pass the hat to the body bags when they come home.
same circus different clowns,i did not vote for this son of a bush, and i'm not surprised at any of this.are any of you?
how far will we let them go before we say wow man that really sucked, and go back to business?
the business of america is BUSINESS. so who do you think is behind all this nonsense? fucking disney that's who. i smell a rat!
viva the revolution! what do you mean it won't be televised, i saw, you saw,we saw the world fall,fa la la la la! keep watching the skies.
p.s do any of you know the antidotes for nerve agent or blood agent?i'm feeling a little faint. w.t.c(willie the clown)

[willie the clown]

hey lurker,i guess you met some americans while you were here, huh.i bet all you sheep lurkers,from down under,noworries,with the muslim nation breathing down your neck, right,any way my ma and pa are in breeding.and i think the dogs in rut.hey sis are you awake!
hey do you know why cowboys have the names on their belts, so when they pull there heads out of there asses,they know who they are.
viva the revolution,keep watching the skies.w.t.c. gadflies unite

[AJJames]

Danny, I don't know you ,I'm not trying to insult you or call you names , I appreciate this tragedy has shaken you up, I am genuinely sorry if you thought my comments to be inflamatory, I meant them to be informative.
Once again I must emphasize ,my opinion is that the entire western world, including Britain where I live is responsible for terrorist activities all over the world all the time, this isn't me saying it's all america's fault and the rest of the world is innocent.
please don't miss the point, by getting into a slanging match with me.
Besides I don't feel right arguing with you when you are supplying all the amunition for my side.It's not fair.

[Danny Hustle]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by martin ewen:
I can't resist, its a weakness.
You come full circle so masterfully I suspect you're a semi transparent prank.
To make generalisations about a country full of people is 'Whack' and then to finish with cold blooded pride re hiroshima and a 'watch out were americans..grrr' thing at the end.
Silly but brilliant.

Are you so fucked in the head that you think that statement was pride filled? It was told as a horror story you fucking nitwit. It made my blood run cold to write it.

My point was I am aware that this country has done some fucked things. I am also aware this country and it's ethical behavior is no better than anyone else's.

My main point was so fucking what. What good does it do the world for a person to sit behind their computer and point out the short comings of others? How does that help the world? What does it do other than make the author feel superior?

I'll give you a big hint. It doesn't accomplish one fucking thing other than stir up feelings of anger in the parties being attacked.

If these pompous assholes are so worried about the world why don't they get off their asses and do something to change it and stop sitting around pointing fingers. This thread seems to have a lot of bullshit statistics, let me give you another one. 99% of the people on this planet like to hear themselves talk. The other one percent are the kind of people that when they say they are going to do something they get off their asses and do it. Right now I'd say a large portion of that one percent is fucked.

We Americans are aware that our country is not perfect, thanks for the reminder now shut the fuck up.

Everyone knows true Americans play the banjo, have no eyelids and follow their sisters into the backroom.(in the event any Americans think last statement literal, please go to nearest electrical outlet and insert fork)

I don't think it is meant to be literal but it is pretty odd you would think it was funny. You must be quite a guy.

For the record I am not a troll, ask Jim to check my IP address. I am writing this from Compuware.com Now go and look up my friends Myra and Graham in the list of those killed on the flights leaving Logan. You will see they both worked here at Compuware. As a matter of fact I spent most of the day the Friday before the tragedy getting Myra's laptop prepped for the trip. Check it out, and then call me a troll.

Regards,

Dan-


[This message has been edited by Danny Hustle (edited 10-05-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Danny Hustle (edited 10-05-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Danny Hustle (edited 10-05-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Danny Hustle (edited 10-05-2001).]

[Danny Hustle]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AJJames:
Danny, I don't know you ,I'm not trying to insult you or call you names , I appreciate this tragedy has shaken you up, I am genuinely sorry if you thought my comments to be inflamatory, I meant them to be informative.
Once again I must emphasize ,my opinion is that the entire western world, including Britain where I live is responsible for terrorist activities all over the world all the time, this isn't me saying it's all america's fault and the rest of the world is innocent.

I don't disagree with any of this,other than the to say the eastern world is just as fucked as the west, but so fucking what? What are you doing to change it? If you are doing nothing other than coming here and insulting Americans (as well as others) and telling fairytales we have all heard a thousand times before, who cares? What does it prove other than you think you are pretty fucking nifty?



please don't miss the point, by getting into a slanging match with me.

Actually it was you that began slanging Americans, and in the most ignorant way at that.

Besides I don't feel right arguing with you when you are supplying all the amunition for my side.It's not fair.

So much for not trying to insult me. Well, that's your opinion. I'd say you've done a pretty fine job of showing your bigotry and hatered.

Regards,

Dan-

[This message has been edited by Danny Hustle (edited 10-05-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Danny Hustle (edited 10-05-2001).]