New York

**Danny Hustle** · Oct-11-2001, 01:13 PM

Yes John,

The caveat is, you must be careful what you educate yourself with. There is an old computer axiom that fits quite nicely here, called GIGO.

To say, "far from conspiracy theory" and then mentioning Oliver Stone is one of the funnier things I've read here.

You believe as you like, allow me to do the same.

Regards,

Dan-

Originally posted by jonnyflash:
"Yes Johnny, we understand, and Elvis visited your spacecraft."

Far from conspiracy theory,here are some sources for the information I presented.I challenge each of us to educate ourselves about political and economic realities to better understand world events.

Information Sources:

Killing Hope:US Military and CIA intervention
since WW2 by William Blum

Blackshirts and Reds
by Micheal Parenti

Covert Action Quarterly
(Investigative Journalism Magazine)

Prevailing Winds Magazine
(Investigative Journalism Magazine featuring articles by Oliver Stone,Rosanne Barr,Woody Harelson,Micheal Parenti,etc.)

Z Magazine
(Investigative Journalism Magazine)

Who funded Adolf Hitler?
(Book)

Centre for the Preservation of Modern History
(Organization)

Any of the many books by ex-CIA operatives

School of the Americas Watch
(Organization)

Dark Alliance:The CIA,Contras and Crack Cocaine by Gary Webb(Book and Websites)

Crack the CIA
(Website)

**LANCEALOT** · Oct-12-2001, 08:54 AM

What happens next?

Will bombing Afghanistan prevent further problems......exacerbate present ones or create new terrors?

Have we in our headlong thirst for vengence and justice perhaps attacked the wrong party? Is Bin Laden really the culprit or do we just think he is?

And if so what are the consequences of bombing the Taliban Government? (I would have liked to have seen proof BEFORE any attack took place).

Was the 11 Sept. a manifestation of a bigger, deeper problem that we're not facing or just plain old-fashioned wickedness?

And have we seen the beginning of a new world war or will it all just blow over?
What happens next?

[This message has been edited by LANCEALOT (edited 10-12-2001).]

**jonnyflash** · Oct-12-2001, 08:12 PM

Jonnyflash's .02:
"Will bombing Afghanistan prevent further problems......exacerbate present ones or create new terrors?"

When I picture my own country's people getting thousands of tonnes of bombs dropped us for the alleged and unproven crimes of leaders I may or may not support,and try to put myself in those shoes,I see no other possible outcome but intense anger at the US.It would doubtless be hard to convince my fellow countrymen that it was not the US people who perpetrated this horror,but their government alone.

"Have we in our headlong thirst for vengence and justice perhaps attacked the wrong party? Is Bin Laden really the culprit or do we just think he is?"

There is no proof that this man did anything but be a good trainee and employee of the CIA for years.
This is in all the papers here in Canada.Aside from the wealthy 1% who see this war as a way out of a deep economic recession,no one I have spoken with believes the US Govt has a shred of conclusive evidence linking Osama to this deed.

"what are the consequences of bombing the Taliban Government? (I would have liked to have seen proof BEFORE any attack took place)".

Unfortunately,as my own govt has offered bomb-throwing planes and men to this US govt-orchestrated effort,Canada's image as a nice peaceful honest country will soon go up in smoke.The cowardly inability of my Prime Minister to go against Bush's edict shall smear the good name of all Canadians in the opinion of the majority of the world's citizens;the 3rd world poor.We will become just another murderous bully out for oil in their eyes.This is what I see as the consequence for Canadians.

"Was the 11 Sept. a manifestation of a bigger, deeper problem that we're not facing or just plain old-fashioned wickedness?"

Funny how our govts go thru the trouble of educating us about the complex and scientific nature of reality,and then turn around and try to sell us a Good VS Evil soap opera fairy tale.I believe we are dealing with groups of real live humans.
There is a huge and long running deficit of humanistic foreign policy that needs to be admitted,dealt with,and then we can all move on.
"And have we seen the beginning of a new world war or will it all just blow over?
What happens next?"
I don't think any other govt wants to face a possible Nagasaki or Hiroshima on it's own
soil to try and stop US Imperialism.I think a few nations' warplanes will carpetbomb that country,then go back home for a McDonalds dinner that same day.If Iraq is any example,the ensuing sanctions will kill 2 or 300000 kids and elderly thru lack of essentials.

**jonnyflash** · Oct-13-2001, 04:43 PM

Danny Hustle said"If you want to talk shit about America why not use the hard well known facts? They are better than any of the half truths Mr. Flash is bringing up."

Jonny Replies:My facts are well sourced,as you can see on this post.However,there is one fact that perhaps you can help me with.Is there any proof that any Afghani has anything to do with Sept. 11th?If so,please let me know,as the newspapers in my country have not been able to come up with any.I am not personally attacking you,Danny.I'm trying to separate fact from fiction,and truth from (understandably)shock-induced emotion.This is life and death,and I don't feel any of us can afford clouded judgment.

Airborne Dan said:"Our "terrorist government" (Johnny Shithead) is going to use its political clout and military muscle along with HUMANITARIAN AID to hunt down and bring justice to the criminals responsible for the deaths of 7,000 people.

With no proof,the terrorists'nationalities are open to debate.Why pick that country to bomb?Surely there is more than one suspect
for these barbaric acts.Put on a blindfold and spin your globe brisquely,and blindly stick a pin into the surface of the globe.Whatever country you happen to stick will be home to at least thousands of people with a profound resentment at their treatment by the US govt.The entire world will have to be destroyed before the US govt will have killed off all it's enemies. The US govt needs to STOP making enemies by taking and keeping it's hands out of their internal national affairs.The 3rd world does not want to have all it's resources robbed by the 1st world.A few (relative)pennies of
charity really don't make up for the systematic expropriation of wealth that the US govt has so humanitarianly been engaging in.(And the rest of the first world too)
And the humanitarian bombing is just the icing on that bitter cake.

Airborne Dan said"That being said, how the hell could anyone imply that the U.S.A. indeed any country or peoples anywhere deserved or asked for 7,000 civilians to be murdered?"

Jonny replies:
I've studied the posts here,and no-one has said or implied that any US citizens deserved Sept 11th.We the people;questioning and ultimately changing US foreign policy, is to many minds the only hope for a world without state terrorism,individual terrorism or any other kind of terror.True patriotism demands justice and peace for the nation.

"The caveat is, you must be careful what you educate yourself with."

Jonny replies:
I believe education is a duty and responsibility of every man, woman and child.
Why should I depend on the corporate media to dictate my ideas?I have serious doubts that the politicians,CEOs,land barons and editors have my well being at heart.In fact,I suspect that what's bad for us good for them.War,high rents,high unemployment and low minimum wage are all very good things for the rich.This is how they get even richer.On the other hand,for us,the rentpayers,soldiers,and workers these things are all terrible.It's important to know our interests,or we will never have a say over these things.We deserve a say,I figure.

"LikeI said,we paid a price for sticking our nose into other people's business, but the price was far too high."

Sticking the nose into other people's business means staringgossiping,sneaking,going through drawers,listening in on a private call,etc.

It certainly does not mean mass murder thru gun,bomb,tank, and medical supplies sanctions.Destroying water treatment plants and hospitals doesn't count either.These are just not the acts of a nosy person.

The debate we are having here is happening all around the world right now.The best of us are seeking long-term answers to these big questions in every nation on earth.All war will end with participitory democracy.A true democracy where we decide the course of action instead of just whether to wave a flag or not.

**Chance** · Oct-13-2001, 04:57 PM

Johnny, you are overlooking the fact that OBL took personal credit for at least two previous attacks against American targets, and has, whether you care to see it or not, been linked to at least two others -- even not including the one on Sept 11th. So even if he were innocent of THAT one, there is still ample evidence, from his own mouth no less, which convicts him of terroristic violence.

Any other bubbles you want me to break?

**LANCEALOT** · Oct-13-2001, 08:04 PM

I understand your point Chance. Osama Bin Laden did indeed admit responsibility for attacking the US on previous occasions. However he plainly stated that the Sept. 11 attacks were nothing to do with him. Despite this the US has branded him guilty. Now I am not trying to defend Osama, however making this guy a scapegoat simply because there are no other obvious suspects will only exacerbate an already dire situation and I shudder to think of the consequences yet to come as a result of attacking Afghanistan and the Taliban government.

We all know that this will probably turn out for the worst and all our justifiable reactions no matter how 'right' we try to make them will eventually bring nothing but grief.

Like Ghandi said: "The only problem with 'an eye for an eye' is that it whole world will eventually go blind". Perhaps we should use our eyes while we have the chance?

[This message has been edited by LANCEALOT (edited 10-13-2001).]

**jonnyflash** · Oct-13-2001, 10:27 PM

Chance, since when is dropping bombs on civilians an appropriate response to the actions of a few unrelated people?

You still have not provided proof that Osam bin Laden was involved in the events of Sept 11.

It's times like these when the worlds economic and political scene makes me wish that I DID live in a "bubble".

**Chance** · Oct-14-2001, 03:40 AM

Chance, since when is dropping bombs on civilians an appropriate response to the actions of a few unrelated people?

Without getting into a morality pissing contest (with you or anyone else), deadly force has been used against the innocent during warfare from time immemorial. Like it or not, it is part and parcel of "getting the job done". Don't sit there and try to color it as some kind of American invention. Most of the so-called civilized countries are thousands of years old, with an equal amount of military experience. The US is barely 240 years old. You do the math.

You still have not provided proof that Osam bin Laden was involved in the events of Sept 11.

Nor did I offer to. You would make an excellent propaganda writer. Why not just say that I did not provide proof that OBL is not really a transexual? It would make about as much sense.

It's times like these when the worlds economic and political scene makes me wish that I DID live in a "bubble

You are not alone in this. However, the biggest mistake that anyone can make would be to run for the nearest cave or uninhabited island and try wishing things away just beause they seem so terrible. Even worse is to stay put and criticize those who dare to do something about it -- even if what they measure out seems just as brutal as what caused the reaction in the first place. If you are really bothered, why not get involved in a way that can make a real difference? Maybe politics? Maybe law enforcement? Counseling? Religion? Firefighting? You get the point.

**Chance** · Oct-14-2001, 02:35 PM

However he plainly stated that the Sept. 11 attacks were nothing to do with him.

Lance, you will forgive me if I don't wipe my forhead and sigh, "Whoo! OLB just announced that he is innocent of these crimes -- so it must be true."

What alternative did he have, pray tell?

I am certainly not in the loop, but it seems to me that even HE was shocked by the enormity of it all, given the total collapse of both towers, etc. I am believing that even he realized, albeit after the fact, that he had gone a too far.

In his distorted perspective, had he been in the position of the US, OBL would have wasted no time sending in the bombers loaded with Einstein's invention. So, at least to me, he was cringing in anticipation of getting the same, and rushed to press with his so-called claim to innocence. Between the lines his true message was: "PLEASE! Don't nuke us! I didn't mean it, really!"

As a postscript, just today (Sunday) the Taliban announced that terror attacks would continue and that Muslims around the world should stay out of tall buildings and airplanes. But I suppose this is just some morbid coincidence with Sept 11th, yet without direct implication?

Sorry. I was born, but I wasn't born yesterday.

**jonnyflash** · Oct-14-2001, 05:37 PM

Chance said:
Lance, you will forgive me if I don't wipe my forhead and sigh, "Whoo! OLB just announced that he is innocent of these crimes -- so it must be true."

What alternative did he have, pray tell?

I am certainly not in the loop, but it seems to me that even HE was shocked by the enormity of it all, given the total collapse of both towers, etc. I am believing that even he realized, albeit after the fact, that he had gone a too far.

In his distorted perspective, had he been in the position of the US, OBL would have wasted no time sending in the bombers loaded with Einstein's invention. So, at least to me, he was cringing in anticipation of getting the same, and rushed to press with his so-called claim to innocence. Between the lines his true message was: "PLEASE! Don't nuke us! I didn't mean it, really!"

As a postscript, just today (Sunday) the Taliban announced that terror attacks would continue and that Muslims around the world should stay out of tall buildings and airplanes. But I suppose this is just some morbid coincidence with Sept 11th, yet without direct implication?

Sorry. I was born, but I wasn't born yesterday."

Jonny flash replies:
Playing what-if games and
attempting to psycho-analyze the suspect in this tragedy really doesn't clarify anything.After their country began to sustain massive damage from the bombs of your government,retaliation was promised.
This still doesn't mean that Osama or any Afghani is linked.Your arguments are too subjective to hold weight in any court of law.Does your government think that they are above international law? Obviously they do.They felt fine violating the Geneva War Convention's laws barring acts of agression against the people and nation of Yugoslavia.
We need to do more than conform to the uniform opinion presented to us from on high.
Member posted 10-14-2001 04:40 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chance, since when is dropping bombs on civilians an appropriate response to the actions of a few unrelated people?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chance said"deadly force has been used against the innocent during warfare from time immemorial. Like it or not, it is part and parcel of "getting the job done"."

jonny replies
Getting what job done?Killing women and children?If every political,relgious and ethnic group held your philosophy,Chance,
then we would surely all be dead by now.

Chance said"
Don't sit there and try to color it as some kind of American invention. Most of the so-called civilized countries are thousands of years old, with an equal amount of military experience. The US is barely 240 years old. You do the math."

Are you suggesting that the US still has a lot of genocide,torture and imperialism "credits" to use up before it is subject to the same standards {Geneva War Conventions}as the rest of the international community?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You still have not provided proof that Osam bin Laden was involved in the events of Sept 11.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Nor did I offer to. You would make an excellent propaganda writer. Why not just say that I did not provide proof that OBL is not really a transexual? It would make about as much sense."

The pretext for the ongoing US bombing spree is not that they are hunting down a transexual,it is that they are hunting the organizer of the events of Sept. 11th.One cannot compare an irrational what-if game
to national war mobilization.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's times like these when the worlds economic and political scene makes me wish that I DID live in a "bubble
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chance said:
"If you are really bothered, why not get involved in a way that can make a real difference? Maybe politics? Maybe law enforcement? Counseling? Religion? Firefighting? You get the point."
Jon replies:
I certainly am bothered.I am bothered at the deep historical amnesia all around North America.
I believe that we all need to be engaged in our country's political life,and keep track of our history.This is the only thing that will make a real difference.Leaving this task to the professionals will ensure that the world never advances beyond this point in history.We made it thru feudalism and monarchy and there's no reason our situation can't get better still.

**Chance** · Oct-15-2001, 01:19 AM

I have never said that I know for sure that any particular person or group was responsible. How could I?

What I have said, is that OBL has publicly taken credit for several other bombings and acts of terror -- for which he has already been indicted. Even before Sept 11th he was on the run from authorities for mass murder. So why all the energy standing up for this madman, I wonder? Would you want your kids to play with him?

As for a court of law, many a case is built upon circumstantial evidence; there is not always a body or a smoking gun. Sometimes it's just too many coincidences for the guys own good which brings him down. That, and possibly a taped satellite telephone conversation!

...playing games and attempting to psycho-analyze the suspect in this tragedy really doesn't clarify anything.

Are you serious? Psychological profiling is a common and invaluable tool used for many activities, not the least of which is profiling criminal behavior.

...After their country began to sustain massive damage from the bombs of your government, retaliation was promised.

More propaganda. You are treating this like it is some kind of lone action on the part of the US, and this is simply not the case and you know it! This action is supported by dozens of governments, INCLUDING almost every Muslim country.

Furthermore, the Taliban themselves are not the rightful govt of Afghanistan. They are usurpers, and have done more to the detriment of their own people than any bombing could ever do. Seven million refugees, fleeing the hand of the Taliban for years, is nothing to sniff at.

A personal question: Can you in all honesty completely overlook the significance of that Taliban warning yesterday of staying out of tall buildings and airplanes? This made no impact with you at all?

[This message has been edited by Chance (edited 10-15-2001).]

**AJJames** · Oct-15-2001, 06:23 AM

A few notes, the vast majority of people I've spoke to are in support of a global cooalition against terrorism but AGAINST military assaults on Afghanistan, as the offensive intensifies their are more and more anti-war demonstators all over the world (more white protesters than muslims), however, the greater the opposition to the strikes , the more the media feel it nesercary to say that 90% of people support Bush and Blair.
The only anti war demo's I see on the news are of muslims ,I happen to know of live rallys and demos from the internet and personal friends.These protests are taking place all over the western world by all religions but the press doesn't report it, instead it reports that the vast majority of people support the assault.
If this is about capturing Bin Laden ,why is the reward for his capture only $5 million and the cost of destroying the country he lives in is upwards of $50 million dollars per night, if I really wanted this guy to stand trial I would spend that money trying to capture him ,not give him millions more supporters, cos that's exactly what's happening , America and Britain are turning moderate fence sitters into fundamental supporters of Al -queida and co, by behaving in this criminal way.
When I say criminal, someone's going to say it was a crime that was done unto us first etc,
But in this so called civilised world we have things called laws, local, regional, national and international. Under national law or federal law as you might call it if someone murders your friend and you go and murder the culprit ,you will be sent to prison, because we have a police and judicial system that ensures everyone's entitlement to a fair trial where eveidence must be shown to the court until the court is beyond reasonable doubt of the defendants guilt.
can anyone please tell me why , the U.S and Britain can get away with acting outside the parameters of international law defined by the united nations? They are just flaunting their global influence like a mafia would do.

If you and I can't take the law into our own hands ,why can Bush and his cronies?

Lastly I find myself in the bizare position of agreeing with Chance on one point he made, it wasn't Bush or even the USA that invented tyranical regimes, as far back as you go in history it's always about the big bad empire oppressing the little people by cruel and barbaric means.
The current middle east crisis has as much to do if not more to do with Britain's interventionalism than America, the list of Britains international crimes is a lot longer than America's, it's just that USA has built it self a big list in a very busy century and is now the world wide symbol of power and corruption in modern times.
one question to leave you on, has anyone else noticed that Bush is always holding back a big cheesy grin and sometimes doesn't even hold it back, what's that about? as if we don't know, he's loving every minute of this, and that makes me sick!

nuff said
increase the peace

**Danny Hustle** · Oct-15-2001, 08:10 AM

AJ, I don't know what country you are from but anti war protests are on the news every night here in the USA. And not just Muslim. They also show the HUGE amount of people here who support the war. Interestingly, almost 100% of the people I talk to support the military action. Imagine that.

Point number two. No one want's to bring Bin Laden to trial. We are at war, there are no points of parliamentary procedure, no Marquis of Queensbury rules, do not pass go and do not collect $200.00. That time has passed. War was declared against the United States of America and it is now defending itself. there is enough evidence to support that Osama Bin Laden is responsible for many terrorist attacks against Americans. he has admitted to them. There is also a trail of cash that leads directly from the folks who hijacked those planes right back to Osama. This may not be enough proof for you but it is plenty for me. In order to defend her borders the United States of America has declared war against all terrorists and terrorist organizations it feels threatens the safety of her citizens. If you think it is unusual for the US to declare ware against terrorists, it isn't. Our third president (Jefferson) declared war against the Barbory pirates for pretty much the same reasons. Check a valid US history book as well as the comic books you like and you might actually be able to read between the two and see something a bit closer to the truth.

It has not one iota to do with revenge or blood lust it has to do with the preservation of the people and ideals this country was founded upon. If you disagree with them thank god you don't live here but don't be such a fucking hypocrite that you come here to fill your hat with my money and then bad mouth me the second I walk away. It's poor form.

As far as Bush's cheesy grin goes, I'm not surprised to see you've added mind reading to your list of credits. Unfortunately, your not very good as Bush has had that same cheesy grin since the late 80's. I suspect it has more to do with his irritable bowel than his blood lust. Perhaps some digestive biscuits with his tea might help, non?

Originally posted by AJJames:
A few notes, the vast majority of people I've spoke to are in support of a global cooalition against terrorism but AGAINST military assaults on Afghanistan, as the offensive intensifies their are more and more anti-war demonstators all over the world (more white protesters than muslims), however, the greater the opposition to the strikes , the more the media feel it nesercary to say that 90% of people support Bush and Blair.
The only anti war demo's I see on the news are of muslims ,I happen to know of live rallys and demos from the internet and personal friends.These protests are taking place all over the western world by all religions but the press doesn't report it, instead it reports that the vast majority of people support the assault.
If this is about capturing Bin Laden ,why is the reward for his capture only $5 million and the cost of destroying the country he lives in is upwards of $50 million dollars per night, if I really wanted this guy to stand trial I would spend that money trying to capture him ,not give him millions more supporters, cos that's exactly what's happening , America and Britain are turning moderate fence sitters into fundamental supporters of Al -queida and co, by behaving in this criminal way.
When I say criminal, someone's going to say it was a crime that was done unto us first etc,
But in this so called civilised world we have things called laws, local, regional, national and international. Under national law or federal law as you might call it if someone murders your friend and you go and murder the culprit ,you will be sent to prison, because we have a police and judicial system that ensures everyone's entitlement to a fair trial where eveidence must be shown to the court until the court is beyond reasonable doubt of the defendants guilt.
can anyone please tell me why , the U.S and Britain can get away with acting outside the parameters of international law defined by the united nations? They are just flaunting their global influence like a mafia would do.

If you and I can't take the law into our own hands ,why can Bush and his cronies?

Lastly I find myself in the bizare position of agreeing with Chance on one point he made, it wasn't Bush or even the USA that invented tyranical regimes, as far back as you go in history it's always about the big bad empire oppressing the little people by cruel and barbaric means.
The current middle east crisis has as much to do if not more to do with Britain's interventionalism than America, the list of Britains international crimes is a lot longer than America's, it's just that USA has built it self a big list in a very busy century and is now the world wide symbol of power and corruption in modern times.
one question to leave you on, has anyone else noticed that Bush is always holding back a big cheesy grin and sometimes doesn't even hold it back, what's that about? as if we don't know, he's loving every minute of this, and that makes me sick!

nuff said
increase the peace

**martin ewen** · Oct-15-2001, 11:11 AM

Dan
your obviously misguidedly under the assumption that argument consists of a kind of insult and sarcasm contest which is sad really as your transparently ill equipped.
'I don't know what country you're from'.....
'The comics you like'...
All top shelf stuff (thats sarcasm)
now perhaps in reply to this you can run to a dictionary and collect some really good abusive and sarcastic words that add to your already sparkeling collection which so far, on this post alone, consist
of
"fuck you"
"shut the fuck up"
"fucked in the head"
"fucking nitwit
'Shut the fuck up" (again)
"pompous assholes"
"so fucking what"
"fucking hypocrite"

Two other things, could you stop cutting and pasteing the letter you object to in full before you rant as it gets a bit tedious to re-read everything. (although It'd be really reactionary if you carried on, that would sure score one on me)
and secondarily could you stop trying to represent the american point of view and just speak for yourself because you see I,m otherwise having a lovely time here in connecticut and your embarrasing some american friends of mine.
thanks ever so and remember your country needs you and don't ever change.

**AJJames** · Oct-15-2001, 12:00 PM

Martin, you said it perfectly, bravo,
Dan's copy and pasting is indicative of his inability to remember further back than the last point in a discussion. He finds it impossible to conduct reasoned dialogue, and resorts to personal insults rather than tackling an issue which is evidently too complex for his gold fish like attention span.

New York

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