STUPIDEST QUESTION I'VE EVER HEARD...

[scot]

I never said you were superior.

[Rick Martin]

I went to school many moons ago for Horticulture and there was a diagram of the human body in a text book that showed the dangers of dermal absorbtion in the event of a pesticide spill. It said that chemicals splashed into the eyes and mouth interior go right into the blood stream. It also showed that the skin around the crotch where the leg meets the pelvis is very conducive to absorbing liquid chemicals. What can we learn from this?
I would suggest that if you are going to put solvents into your mouth, you refrain from also squatting in these same chemicals.

[martin ewen]

[quote] hence - it is common knowledge in this day and age <hr></blockquote>
Ha.
definately worth conceeding the point for.
Have you ever spoken that phrase or is it strictly a writer.
Yes in fact the pregnant girl was wrong to think she could gargle inflamable liquids.
But she had doubts, which in your superior rush you ignore.
Please pick total idiots for comparitive gloating in future.

[Steven Ragatz]

Firegirl,

I don't think there is any need to feel defensive. Just take a deep breath, and let the smoke out slowly...

From the audience's perspective, fire eating/breathing is, in fact, "cool". It is one of a handful of techniques that plays at a Ren Faire that is considered authentic, and being an outdoor venue, fairs lend themselves to having fire done as safely as possible. (Though I have seen many fire performers working around bails of straw - while I was hoping that there were some not-so-authentic fire extinguishers close by!)

I just don't see the payoff being worth the risk. At least smashing your face in glass heals, and the scars left from juggling are mostly psychological, but the idea of gently burning ulcers into one's mouth and esophagus doesn't even rank with those in my book. If it were for really good money, and one only had to do it once in a while, then sure, but to have to do it as a staple technique for every show sounds much to severe to me.

Then all I have to do is read one post on P.net about chemical pneumonia and I'm even further convinced.

It seems that many variety performers embrace fire manipulation early on because there is a short learning curve and a big payoff in tips. The short term solution suggests using fire, but the long term one doesn't. Of course, breathing is different from eating, but the health issues are the same.

Maybe in my old age I'm just starting to sound like my dad. When in high school, my picture appeared on the front page of the local newspaper blowing a fireball in the park. After seeing it, my dad made me promise that I would never do it again. Of course, like any good performer, I lied, and I broke that promise because I liked the trick, and continued to do it. After a few accidental swallows, getting caught in a wind-change fire rain, and the non-stop kero-burps, I decided that it really wasn't very much fun after all. To this day, I've honestly wondered if I had done permanent damage with the residue, heavy metals, etc.

You obviously enjoy what you do, and wish to continue, but I would encourage you to keep in mind that the reason people think that it is safe is because they don't really want to believe that anyone would be so desperate as to really risk their health for the sake of a variety show.

Just my thoughts.

Steven Ragatz

[firegirl]

on the note of risks in fire eating -- this is WHY i don't teach people how to do this... because there are so many risks... i could relate numerous stories of performer friends i have who've injured themselves while doing fire manipulations of many kinds... i really don't think people who aren't completely in comprehension of the risks should think about trying it... and, i know when i was learning how to eat fire there were many other performers who tried to discourage me from doing so for those precise reasons...

however - if you are brainless enough to think it's a good idea to do fire manipulation - and, you prove to me that you're gonna be a responsiable performer... then i'm happy (like cybelle) to give safety pointers and basic technique advice... 'cause i'd hate to see anyone else suffer the injuries of myself or my fire manipulator friends... (sometime i should post the story of kevin "uncanny" lepine's experiance with blowing fire balls in jackson square in new orleans... let me just say this: it's NOT a good idea to try to do any fire manipulation in an area which acts as a wind tunnel. 2nd and 3d degree burns... bad, bad, bad!)


i believe there was a thread about all of these things on the p.net last summer... ??? but - to recap one area of this -- there are safety precautions which fire manipulators take while doing their stunts... many of them. and, for myself - i am pretty darn anal about following them precisely. for my safety, for the safety of my audiance.

as far as it being authentic to ren faires... all i have to say regarding that is a wonderfully pithy quote from my friend ryan gilloti -- "the rennisance faire is to history as the etch-a-sketch is to art."

and, actually -- i found it was far easier to learn how to do escapes, sword work and whip tricks than it was to learn how to eat/blow fire... there is that mental block there for most reasonable people...

but - yet i still do it... because i enjoy it... because i think it has a valid and historic place in the sideshow arts of old... because i think it looks cool.

*stepping off soapbox*

i am not meaning this to be a debate... seriously - i just posted the story because i found it amusing... and, scot - i didn't say you were superior - or, that you said i was acting superior... that assignation comes to me only from martin...

and -- i'm sorry... i still believe that ignorance of the facts is not an excuse for careless behavior... we're all adults, right? we should be able to figure out that if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck that it is a duck, right? so how is it a large leap to understand that if it looks dangerous - it IS dangerous?

but - waddever... read wot u want into what i'm saying... not my problem.

[ 08-05-2003: Message edited by: firegirl ]</p>

[Stretch]

This thread is a great example of why I love p.net so much. :&gt [img]wink.gif[/img]

NOW FOR A STOOpid question. To set this up, let me explain that I don't "do" fire and will leave it those so inclined. For me, the major discouraging factor is the sight of my two cousins, - distant, VERY distant! - who burned off 40+ % of their skin. As children, old enough to know better, but sucuming to temptation, they invented a marvoulus game. Throwing lighted matches in to the small bung of an "empty" 5 gallon gas can. Needless to say the fumes ignited in a magnificant and deadly fireball.

That, and my lungs can't stand much in the way of fumes or smoke of any kind. So while I would be inclined to spin fire poi, the thought of having to use stinky kero, or turning into a nine foot tall human torch puts me off.

SO . . . What about vegitable oils? Vegitable oil and alcohol mixtures? Bio- diesel? Trans fatty acids? coal? acne skin scrapings? bacon fat ;&gt [img]wink.gif[/img]

Enquiring minds want to know!

[firegirl]

they make oderless kero...

the viscosity of kero is what makes it the safest fuel to use for blowing, spinning or juggling torches. it has to be on a wick type surface which is saturated with it for it to burn... or, suspended in air... and, it goes out quickly then... of course if fire lands on flesh or anything easily flammable, ur gonna burn... (hence the danger of a blow backing up on you.) wot i understand is this: kero burns on saturated surfaces or in a suspended state... but, if u drip a couple of drops onto a harder surface (like wood) it's not gonna light up... if you touch a juggling torch to your skin it's not gonna transfer the fuel to your skin... unlike other substances like colemans... again - i think it's the viscosity of the kero -- the weight and thickness of it - which makes this so... as i rarely do blows or poi (for the hay bale issue at ren faires... space issues in clubs...) and cannot juggle worth poo-poo, i'm kind of limited in wot i know about this... this information is being relayed to ya from what other performers (jugglers mostly) have told me about their fuel choices. and, most of the fire jugglers i know say that it's the safety issues which lead them to use kero instead of anything else.

another idea of fuels to use on poi or on juggle torches is this: plain old charcoal lighter fluid... it's basicly the same as kero -- in how it works on the wicks... however, you CANNOT use it for any mouth tricks... it doesn't transfer to skin... or, clothing (see above disclaimer) and, it's much CHEAPER than kero... it comes in larger quantities, too... where the only way i've been able to buy kero is in little bottles of lamp oil... at least in the usa.

oils other than this - i don't really know about... i don't think that veggie oil or any other kind of oils are gonna work -- i mean, they may light initally... but, i think they'd go out pretty fast.

i would NEVER used any kind of petrol... it's way, way dangerous. it's much more harmful for even just to the touch... the fumes are toxic... and, if you're worried about going up in flames... that's the way to do it - diesel and reg. petrol are just too flamable...

anyhoo - bill... dat's wot i know. next?

[ 08-05-2003: Message edited by: firegirl ]</p>

[Danny Hustle]

Interestingly non dairy creamer (powdered kind like Creamora) if suspended in air will ignite. Don’t ask me how I know this.

Best,

Dan

[Hydrophobia]

Danny - do you know how to make it work? I was playing around with that sort of stuff (well, custard powder, but near as dammit) the other day.

It was pretty uninspiring as a fuel I thought, while I could get a few good flares round the torch, it seemed kinda unreliable. It needed really still weather and a kind of gentle "pop" from the mouth, like blowing a smoke ring.

Biggest problem I found was the fallout from it, clouds of dust, some slightly gloopy from being spit out, which landed on my boots and all over the back garden.

The candyfloss smell was kinda cool though! Anybody else have any experience with fire powders, am I just doing it all wrong?

[Danny Hustle]

Hi Hydro,

I’ve never tried it from my mouth. I thought about it but the thought of having a face full of goopy white stuff made me think it would be best if I passed.

I made a compressed air flamethrower for it. It was not something I used on the street but something I used on stage when I was a musical performer. It was fairly shitty fuel (it was super cheap at the time) but when it looked good it really looked good. Most of the time it looked fairly mediocre.

Best,

Dan-

[young raoul]

This site has a plethora of information in the backpages. Go to the "Busking Q & A/General Performing Topics" thread - page 3 about half way down there's a topic entitled "Learn to Fire Eat". Lots of discussion and info about flammable powders, blowbacks and the like. If you delve deeper into the backpages, you'll also find there was once a topic about the "fishwich" but never "flames from a fish?". David Holder had a "Learn to eat Fish" sideline going but that's another tale.

yr

[Pele]

Wow...ummm...so much to say on this topic, I don't even know where to begin.

Firegirl. The story is humorous. I only teach people who prove to me they can handle it. To date, in 5 years of performing fire arts, I have taught 5...and three of them are from the Center for Inquiry and were researching side show skills, the other two were fire performers already. I offer tips to those that start, and wrote a FAQ on fire breathing for another site, but like you, I refuse to teach. Safety of people being one. Maturity another. Insurance and liability are HUGE issues in this litigation happy day and age. Imagine if you did teach her and something happened to her baby???? Ugh. I think it was a good call. But I also understand that innocent wide-eyed exuberance alot of these "kids" get and so all I can say is, at least she asked. Better that then listen in, have something gone wrong and when she reports it using your name a source.

I spent a looooong time researching all this stuff, so I agree, that anyone who wants to do it enough can find all the info they need to know. And if they invest the time and effort into that, then that helps to somewhat alleve the question of irresponsibility.

Fuels to use. Wow. No gasolene derrivitives. That is a given.

White Gas/Naphtha are essentially the same things. Both are explosive, corrosive and toxic. These are the components of charcoal lighter, Zippo fluid, Ronsonal (sp??) fluid and Coleman Camp fuel. The reason it is used is because it has a low flashpoint.

*side note on flashpoint: Flashpoint is used to measure the amount of cumbustible FUMES, not liquid itself. The lower the flashpoint, the more combustible the fumes.

Low flashpoint fuels are extremely volitile, burn hotter than the oil based ones but they also burn quicker. The fuel will go out and leave the (non-burnable) surface underneath relatively unscathed. This is highly loved because you can do trailing and pooling techniques and many fire eating tricks. Low flashpoint fuels also evaporate, so in the case of a spill, the do not stick around long, and this is a good thing.
They have a relatively limited amount of smoke, making them good for indoor shows. But the burn is quick which does not allow to make it through one set. Interesting note on these fuels is that if you purchase the generic store brands of camp fuel (Walmart brand vs. Coleman) there is actually an almost soapy taste. Weird.
Oh, and another reason why it is preferred for many forms of fire performance is that is burns "fairly" cleanly off the wicks, not leaving a large soot deposit.

Ethyl and Methyl alcohols also have a low flashpoint. They are not used so much because their flames burn hot, into the blue range. The bluer the fire the hotter it is, and the less visible.

Kerosene/Lamp oil/Jet fuel. There are actually all derrivitives in the Petro-Oil family. Jet Fuel being the most expensive and the cleanest of them (most processed) it is also the hardest to come by.
Kero is the least refined, and has a "dirty" look, rotten smell and a taste similar to moonshine. The oil derrivitives are high flashpoint, meaning that the fumes are not as combustible, except under certain circumstances : heated up, aspirated, or on "wicking".
This burns "cooler" and longer than the naphtha derrivitives but also has much more smoke and residue. Where the Naphtha family evaporates, the oils do not and can leave stages slick, tools coated in oily soot and a really nasty feel in the mouth. Because of the high flashpoint it is not good for transfer tricks. It is "safer" than most other fuels, which is why it is preferential in addition to burn time, for most fire performers. It should only be used in *well* ventilated areas though.
(Also in this family is Liquid Paraffin, like the wax)

:edit to add in something I forgot: There are Smokeless, Odorless, Colored and Scented Lamp Oils available on the market. If you use them on wicking they work well, and they still smoke quite a bit just not as much. However, the processing they use to create these effects actuall utilizes additives to the chemical mixtures which make them *more toxic* than they were when they started (if you can imagine that! [img]eek.gif[/img] ). So for any form of pyroconsumption, it is not the ideal, no matter how good it sounds. A suggestion however, if you have a clear fuel holding container for on stage, a few drops of food coloring looks nice and does not add to the toxicity. Remember when people try to figure out what you are using they will opt for things the color of the liquid...light blue: coolant, caracao and windshield washer fluid, deep red:wine (this is a good one, very playable), Green: Midori, etc....

Both fuels, if droplets fall, can and will catch combustible items on fire. However, for the amount of a drop, neither will catch a wooden stage and the like. Both, on any tools, need to be shaken at least a bit (But not ever the audience. I saw a Ren couple do this once, where children were in the front row. My eyes nearly bugged out of my head!)

Now...to the question of mixing and matching...to blend naphtha with kero is rather like mixing oil and water, because of their difference in viscosity. However, what many like to do is soak in Kero and dip in Coleman. This allows a quick ignition (high flashpoint makes Kero a bit longer in the light time, and even longer in cold weather) with the benefit of a long burn.

Biodiesel has been found to work. It does not yeild the same results, is harder to aspirate, leaves a terrible oily coating in the mouth, but it does work for that type of show. It still has a black smoke, that while looking interesting during the day to add dimension to a show, is still a pain. High flashpoint and not really the same stench as kero. In the end it is more expensive bang for your buck. The biggest draw of it is that it is not toxic (supposedly, I haven't tried drinking it though) if swallowed. Chance of blowback is still there.

Let's see.....cooking oils, hard to work with but work moderately and with *alot* of force for breathing.
Non-dairy coffee creamer, Flour (is explosive!), lycopodium powder aka dragon's blood in magic shops, corn starch....all of these are combustible as well. Watching people try to "fire breathe" with them is humorous as their mouth gets all cakey and gross, and the risk of blowback still is in effect. For best results either a squeaze bottle with a nozzle top will produce a small blast or a long heavy duty straw with a bit in the end blown blow-dart style.

However, cooking oils do not work on wicks to soak them in. They have very specific heating/aspiration requirements for combustibility that simply does not work well on wicks and leaves the wicks dripping and coated in oil and yet smelly tastily like extra virgin olive oil. [img]wink.gif[/img]

*Information provided by: Matt Morgano, NYC Chemistry Teacher, Allen Knox, Cornell University Chemist Researcher, US MSDS Report Sheet, Coleman 1-800-info line, Lamplight Farms info services and of course personal experience not only of myself but several peers.

Anyway you look at it, fire is dangerous, even if you are not pregnant. But I love it. I do poi, fire knives, etc.... I also do alot without fire to balance it out. It is a choice I actively made after many moons of research and developement. And if someone were to want me to teach this, I expect that same dedication from them as well. *shrug*

[ 08-22-2003: Message edited by: Pele ]</p>

[firegirl]

well - i agree with what you're saying pele...

though i'm curious that you think that naptha is good for blowing??? i would say no to that... it's way to gasseous and any wind whatsoever and you would just be BEGGING for a blow back.

it seems as if this thread has turned into a duplicate of a conversation which took over the p.net for about two months of posts last summer...

if you would like to read fire eating advice/discussion - go to busking general q&a - "help me start walking glass/bed of nails" (i think that's wot the thread was called) there is A TON of helpful info on there...

i have also authored a lengthy article on fire eating/blowing... based on the information in the above thread, my own professional experiance, the professional experiance of my peers and independant research i've continued to conduct over the years as i have developed my professional skills... i submitted it to jim a while back... so keep ur eyes open at the library it may be there someday soon... [img]wink.gif[/img]

cheers,
kate

[ 08-24-2003: Message edited by: firegirl ]

[ 08-24-2003: Message edited by: firegirl ]</p>

[Pele]

[quote]Originally posted by firegirl:
<strong>

though i'm curious that you think that naptha is good for blowing??? i would say no to that... it's way to gasseous and any wind whatsoever and you would just be BEGGING for a blow back.


[ 08-24-2003: Message edited by: firegirl ]

[ 08-24-2003: Message edited by: firegirl ]</strong><hr></blockquote>


Oh No No No! [img]eek.gif[/img] Sorry if I did not state it clearly, Naphtha derrivitives should only be used on torches, not for fire breathing at all. I never promote anything other than lamp oil for breathing actually, because alcohol (grain or otherwise) is just as dangerous for a variety of reasons. I posted that info in here in response to a question asked about biodiesel and veggie fuels.

However, I was thinking about it and I tend to not teach any of the fire arts I do, including poi, stave, hoops and such. I simply do not have confidence in others to teach the fire variations. Does that make sense?

[firegirl]

...i was gonna say, pele... [img]wink.gif[/img]

anyhow -- yah that makes complete sense now... i should send you the article i wrote... i think we're saying all the same things here.

cheers,
kate