Festival etics, 15% of your hat or we report you to the IRS

[martin ewen]

David, your going to have to get used to massive differences of opinion on pnet. hard not to take it personally but what you may not be aware of is that although it's a slow moving site at present, in part because of corporate bleed-off. facebook, google+, etc. generic social networks with attractive bells and whistles. This specialised little online community has existed for over a decade now and has some cumulative wisdom.

Welcome BTW.

Festivals are neither good or bad of themselves. Most that have survived their own learning curves are good as a result and most exploitive fests die, starved because of the indignity they offer.

Many here are or have been full time performers working some international combination of festival and street and corporate.

I mention that because your point about a small ecosystem wherein one big event starves all the others is just a provincial fact rather than anything a principle can be built on. ie, festivals are bad because regular venues become empty during them.

Not arguing this isn't true but obviously the public are drawn to things that most interest them on any given day.

Corporations, as much as I'd like to dress them as darth vader and beat them with a baseball bat are not uniformly bad. The epilepsy foundation is a corporation and they have created a funding umbrella that has propelled the Toronto Buskers fest for over decade to rival Edmonton, another huge and much respected festival.


if you create a cultural, or counter cultural module that charges at the door and sells liquids at a profit using performers to get people through that door then you live or die by the sense of community that has people return to that room.

If you exist using that module by taking for granted a supply of tourists then you are merely another distractive commodity and 'festivals' if they are taking your custom are simply better at what they do than you, [figurative 'you'].

There's no injustice as far as I can see. Adapt or die.

Street theatre is adaptive by definition which I suppose is why it's survived centuries.

and if 'festivals' threaten established venues, well there must be something they offer that established venues do not. My observation is that they offer atmosphere in public places rather than atmosphere you need to pay a cover charge for and additionally festivals commercial worth can be measured on more levels sociologically and commercially than a doortake and bar sales nightly total can match.

But ...you know... I could be mistaken.

[davidkaye]

Festivals and Killing Acts

Your example of Arcade Fire is pretty right on - they probably wouldn't come play a club.

You missed my point. My point is that the Outside Lands music festival (3 days on 5 stages) ruins the live music scene in San Francisco while it's going on. Likewise, the Hardly Strictly Bluegrass festival harms the local bluegrass music scene while it's going on.

My point is that there are X number of people who go to see live events. You have a big festival and the small venues and the smaller performers hurt because the big guys take the audience away.

Maybe I should put it another way: If you just went to the Cotati Accordion Festival and spent the weekend listening to accordion music, would you then go out to a cafe or nightclub and hear someone play accordion? Hell, I play accordion and even *I* wouldn't do that!

[davidkaye]

David, your going to have to get used to massive differences of opinion on pnet. hard not to take it personally but what you may not be aware of is that although it's a slow moving site at present, in part because of corporate bleed-off.

I don't that any of it personally. I'm a longtime veteran of Usenet, so I've seen it all. And your point about "corporate bleed-off" plays EXACTLY into my point.

This specialised little online community has existed for over a decade now and has some cumulative wisdom.

I'm actually not new here, though my description says so. I hadn't logged in nearly 5 years and recently came back. I also know some of the performers who pop up on the streets and at various shows, Eric Cash, Scot Nery, Daniel Browning Smith the Rubber Boy, Chris Karney, Paul Nathan, Sigred, Molotov, etc.

I mention that because your point about a small ecosystem wherein one big event starves all the others is just a provincial fact rather than anything a principle can be built on. ie, festivals are bad because regular venues become empty during them.

San Francisco is a city in a metro of nearly 8 million. It's a world destination and the #4 metro in the USA. Sorry, but it's hardly a provincial setting. It's just that there is a finite audience for everything. It's also true of movie festivals as I've noted elsewhere. Movie festivals are thriving; movie theaters are closing.

and if 'festivals' threaten established venues, well there must be something they offer that established venues do not.

Look at it this way: Lots of people hate WalMart because it's called a "category killer" meaning that it kills off businesses within 50 to 75 miles. This is a known fact. Starbucks has been a category killer in a lot of communities. Chain stores drive out mom'n'pop businesses all the time.

We can say that they're offering something that the other established venues are not. For example, McDonald's offers a bland, uniform dining experience. It doesn't change much from city to city or country to country. People who visit us in San Francisco flock to McDonald's even though SF is one of the finest restaurant destinations in the world. People want the bland, uniform dining experience of a McDonald's.

That's well and good for what it is, but aren't we performers because we want to offer something different?

Take street fairs, for instance. SF has dozens of street fairs -- Noe Valley, Castro, Fillmore, Bernal Heights, Potrero, North Beach, Polk Street, Glen Park, etc., but most of those are identical with the same crafts, the same music, and the same food because the booster groups that put most of them on have contracted with one promoter to run them. (And every one seems to feature LaVay Smith & Her Red Hot Skillet Lickers.)

I just don't want to see the McDonaldsization of street performers.

[Isabella]

And David, I think you missed my point.

*****Do local businesses deserve monopolies on their products?*****

You are arguing that festivals harm local businesses; fundamentally, you posit that one corporation is more worthy of the audience's dollars than another.

Do those local businesses deserve a protected zone where audiences are forced to attend them and them only?

Honestly, I'd even listen to accordion music if it meant I got to spend a day in the fresh air and sunshine instead of having to coop up in a dark, sticky, smoky, too-loud bar to hear some live music. As a consumer, am I allowed to make that choice, or do you feel that choice should be dictated for me based on the home city of the corporation in question?

And as a performer, do you want to work in a location where you have one, local option to sell your services rather than a market of several events/venues where you might negotiate the best deal for yourself and play indoors or out as it suits your show?

[martin ewen]

McDonaldsization of street performers, is I think an unfounded fear. If the American population are further conditioned to accept prefabricated pap as reality then maybe but even though reality moreso in America than anywhere else is a dimwitted feelgood collective hallucination built on exploitation and held up like that is some cherished principled ideal interchangable and technically identical with the concept of 'freedom' while actual freedoms are whittled down to the fact that your scrotum is public property at American airports and given also that the idea of 'disposable income' and 'leisure time' are constructs that have hypnotized the population while they actually commit to entire lives of indentured debt and servitude masked as lifestyles spent being culturally programmed in front of a glowing box when not working or purchasing things the box tells them to on their 'days off'

Well you get the shitty culture you are prepared to put up with is my point and the fact that you have one promoter putting on a raft of cookie cutter street fairs, [which are entirely different entities from a street festival as we here know and are employed by ]

is the reason your objection to new efforts to produce street festivals runs counter to your own argument. Just as the touting of SF as a world destination with it's huge entertainment catchment runs counter to your argument that festivals alone are predominantly responsible for empty rooms.

As far as street theatre goes America leads in many things but it's the handicapped poor cousin of street theatre. The best american performers don't even bother visiting it, it's just too inhospitable. Dirty Fred would get arrested. Space cowboy just has got arrested in NY, doing what he can freely do throughout Europe and Australasia so to that degree American street theatre has already been McDonaldsized. It's only career masochists like Eric who exist as exceptions proving the rule.

[davidkaye]

And David, I think you missed my point.

You are arguing that festivals harm local businesses; fundamentally, you posit that one corporation is more worthy of the audience's dollars than another.

This may be different in your town, but in San Francisco, Oakland, and Berkeley where I've put on hundreds of live music shows, nearly all music venues are owned by 1 or 2 or 3 local people. They're not corporate at all. These are folks who have put their money into a dream and do their best to support the local community by booking local acts as much as they can.

In the Bay Area I'm talking about Amnesia, the Knockout, Hotel Utah, Kingman's Ivy Room, El Rio, Ashkenaz, Mama Buzz, La Pena. Even the biggies like Bottom of the Hill, Red Devil Lounge, and Cafe du Nord are owned by individuals who have borrowed money, even maxed out their credit cards to create community spaces for community events.

The festivals, at least the festivals around here are the big guys for the most part. Hardly Strictly Bluegrass is put on by billionaire Warren Hellman. The Outside Lands festival just concluded is put on by Another Planet, a concert corporation that was spun off from Bill Graham Presents. The Treasure Island music festival, happening soon, is put on by BBC Beverage, a major food and beverage corporation.

Okay, those are music festivals, but I think the theme holds. Festivals for the most part require a lot of money and thus require corporations, or at least corporate foundations to run.

Call me old-school but I prefer to leave my money with local folks I know and respect, who have put their personal money on the line, not corporations.

[Isabella]

So I'm guessing you always pick the neighborhood hardware store over Home Depot, you hit the corner grocery instead of Safeway, and you never set foot in Walmart?

Look, David, you're entitled to your opinion - you ARE arguing that one business is more worthy than another, and your criteria for worthiness is not quality of product, audience appeal, value for money, or variety of music, it's size. You think small businesses are better than big businesses. That's fine, and it's a great thing to support your community. But it doesn't make festivals--that employ a ton of LOCAL people and spread the wealth around LOCALLY through food and beverage concessions, garbage pick up and sanitation, ticket surcharges to the county/state/venue, etc, all the way down to the henna tattoo girl sitting on her cushion at the edge of the festival--the bad guy. You want your local bar to have a monopoly on the music dollar? Keep tilting at that windmill. And it's a great cause to support local venues. But don't imagine that you're advocating for a utopia for all street performers by railing against festivals.

Right now, I'm at a festival. The Edmonton Fringe. There are local venues involved - pretty much every theatre, bar, storefront, and found space in town. Every restaurant in a ten block radius is getting extra traffic. There are local, national and international performers, with a set quota for each category. The indoor and main stage performers are chosen by lottery--the newbies have just as much chance as festival veterans of getting in and making a hit show. And the street buskers have a mix of big and little pitches that are assigned by morning draw. We're making great money, we're provided with housing by the festival, and we're having a wonderful time. And a ton of LOCAL people are coming to LOCAL venues to see LOCAL performers do their shows, as well as those local people getting to interact with theatre people from all over the world. There are LOCAL street performers here who are getting better because they get feedback from professionals on the road, not just their own community. And there are lots of opportunities to share tips on doing better shows, writing better contracts, and getting leads for better gigs. It is one of the kindest, most generous, most lovely artistic communities I get to be a part of. And every morning, the Artistic Director of the WHOLE GODDAMN FESTIVAL is present at the draw to hang out with the street performers and see how we're all doing.

All I can say is, David, if your festival experiences are uniformly terrible, if you make no money and no friends, and gain no artistic satisfaction, you may not be doing it correctly.

[Lee Nelson]

AMEN!!!!!!!!!

[Irina]

Wow, Isabella, you are at the Fringe and you take your time to contribute to this forum? Bravo! Good luck in Edmonton! Your act is amazing, to my knowledge you are the only busking aerial act around! I totally agree with you - festivals are GOOD for local community - they bring tourists to hotels and resreaunts, give jobs to locals, and inspire local creative people to improve the quality of their shows/art etc. The mentality in San Francisco is "this is my spot, I have been here for 10 years, stay away from me!" They do not need to travel, like buskers in other cities, where the weather makes you move out and travel, so they are really protective of their 'territory". I have been threatened with baseball bet on Fisheman's Wharf when I worked there in 2000-2001...I am not saying ALL SF buskers are like that, but some are and I can see where they are coming from. The rents are also very high there, so I can undersrtand that they are under a lot of pressure to make money!

[davidkaye]

You are arguing that festivals harm local businesses; fundamentally, you posit that one corporation is more worthy of the audience's dollars than another.

I think my answer got lost somewhere in this forum. It takes a lot of money to put on a festival of any kind, whether it's a music festival, busking festival, or Burning Man. Thus, the big corporations such as Another Planet, Live Nation, BBC (Better Beverage), and others dominate festivals. THAT is corporate.

On the other hand, the clubs and bars tend almost universally to be owned by 2, 3, or 4 people who've pooled their money and maxed out their credit cards in order to run venues to serve their neighbors and local performers. Big difference.

[Isabella]

I think my answer got lost somewhere in this forum. It takes a lot of money to put on a festival of any kind, whether it's a music festival, busking festival, or Burning Man. Thus, the big corporations such as Another Planet, Live Nation, BBC (Better Beverage), and others dominate festivals. THAT is corporate.

On the other hand, the clubs and bars tend almost universally to be owned by 2, 3, or 4 people who've pooled their money and maxed out their credit cards in order to run venues to serve their neighbors and local performers. Big difference.

Nope, I caught that. It's five posts down.

Like you said - you think small businesses are more valuable than big businesses and should be favored.

Like I said - size is not my criteria for how valuable a corporate citizen is. It doesn't matter to me if it's one dude with a not-very-successful business, as you argue (maxed out credit cards? Yeah, I want to sign a contract with that person, their business acumen must be incredible), or a giant mega-corporation. I think both have good things to offer the community, and both contribute in different ways.

And really, dude, really - the more you argue on a STREET PERFORMERS' forum that MUSIC FESTIVALS are the enemy, the more you sound like a man with sour grapes to squeeze.

Sorry you didn't get hired.
Sorry you didn't get that club gig against the giant festival.
Sorry you didn't have anything to do while your friends were partying at the festival.
Sorry you can't be bothered to get out of California and find out what an amazing experience many festivals can be, both artistically and financially, but please, stop assuming that "festivals" as a group are terrible, because your experience is not the only experience out there, and right now you are claiming that it is.

(claps hands, palms to table, backs to camera, palms to camera)

[Irina]

Hey yall, I think it's awesome to have David on the forum - he is a 'negative catalyst" so to speak, having an argument helps you better understand where you stand...Look at this thread and "I hate festivals" one - long discussion, lots of emotions, wow, fun! I do agree with Isabella that David has some personal issues behind his attack on all festivals - but I do not feel that telling people to shut up is a way to communicate on this forum...it's not like he's telling us to "Repent or go to Hell"...

[davidkaye]

Sorry you didn't get hired.
Sorry you didn't get that club gig against the giant festival.
Sorry you didn't have anything to do while your friends were partying at the festival.

HIRED: Uh, I spend 80% of my time doing freelance computer tech support and 20% of my time busking on the streets and in subway stations. From that busking I get hired to do walk-arounds at rich people's parties in Marin County and in other rich enclaves, and the occasional business event (DNA Lounge, Good Vibrations sex toys store, Oracle, Apple, etc.) Sometimes I do it in costume. I am doing as much performing as I wish to do.

CLUB GIG: I actually turn down most club gigs because my music isn't oriented toward clubs. I am a background player, not a foreground player. I do cheesy pop tunes that make people cock their head and wonder what they're hearing. That works far better as a walk-around than as a club gig.

FRIENDS: I travel in 3 fairly wide social circles, the original Burning Man/Cacophony/Subgenius extended family, jazz and bluegrass musicians, and gamers. I also run a gaming club that meets twice a week. I don't get lonesome.

I was offered 2 comps for the festival but didn't go because I really didn't want to deal with the huge logistical hassle of getting to and from GG Park. Instead I did a little fiddle jamming with a couple friends on Saturday and played board games on Sunday.

Just goes to show that you know nothing about my life.

Next?

[davidkaye]

Oh, heck, just for the hell of it here's my website: http://www.davidkaye.us -- check out Mister Melodeon and see me dressed as a pirate for a pirate party!

[Lee Nelson]

there is so much I want to say to this but I dont think I will say any of it.
Good luck David. Enjoy your 20% performing. I am a 100% performer.