do we care how we are critiqued by our peers?

[em]

i have started this thread because many arguments that start on this forum are based on how we deal with each other as fellow performers. And although i LOVE a good old slagging off i also think we have to be careful in certain situations not to hurt people too much. We all strive to be excellent, or at least to make enough money to eat or buy beer. And in this daily struggle of excellence we occasionally have to ask someone "how am i doing?". Usually we ask someone we respect and trust to give an honest, but practical answer. Like "Its ok but have you tried doing .... or ..... to improve it?" or "what were you trying to do in that bit?"
Sometimes, though, we step out a little further and showcase our work to a wider audience. A brave step, especially if something is new and needs working on.
I have worked on the street for 17 years (FUCK!) and up until 4 years ago it was all i did. Now though, i also work as a director in theatre, street and small and largescale circus. I have seen a lot of stuff...and sometimes that stuff is in dire trouble but has potential, and i have been asked to "fix" it. Quickly i had to learn ways of criticising positively, because if i turned round and said "that was utter shite" i would spend all day trying to get the performers back into the rehearsal room or back on the trapeze.
Having said all that, there are pieces of work that should be put to bed...but i bet you someone out there will enjoy it with vigour. Taste is personal. Perhaps it is all about respect, we treat others how we would like to be treated.

So here's the test.
You end up in bed with someone you really like. You start to kiss, its great, juices are flowing.
Then they move down to your "lady garden" or "purple oboe" and start to fiddle about.
You realize with horror that they are as useless as a chocolate teapot.
You have to sort the situation out before you dry up or wilt.
Do you
A: tell them "i'm sorry, your shit in bed"
B: tell them "down a bit, don't press so hard, little circles will help"
C: Do it yourself or say nothing
D: (answer of your choice)

Put yourself in that situation...how would you want to be dealt with?

lots of love
x

[martin ewen]

are there prizes for this?

[b] contains 3 directives and is data rich.

Give people something they can work with.

Your ego is your own concern and shouldn't really be anyone elses problem. Hypothetically of course but then hypothetically in this instance I also have a vagina.

People who create things in my opinion deserve respect for even trying.
If they are coming to you for advice and you agree to it I think you should give them stuff to work with/on and a little praise never hurts. It can be a challenge. "I love your inner ear work, that time between falling over and then falling over again, I liked that bit."

If it's directing then obviously the whole is greater than the individuals and you may not have the time to be as nurturing as is comfortable. But if you make them love you then they will do most of what you ask [or try real hard at least]
my 2 cents

Em it's 17 years well spent baby.

[Steven Ragatz]

I think it is very helpful to reflect upon the differences of providing feedback and writing. Personally, I find information about what the viewer sees, and the impression made by the performance, more useful than what the viewer thinks I should do. Usually, when someone tries to "write" for me, I have to reverse engineer the writing attempt and figure out what issue that person is trying to address. If I can identify the underlying issue, I can usually come up with an appropriate solution that better suits me and my style.

Everyone is allowed to like and dislike whatever they choose. I don't think it is the artist's place to comment on that choice one way or another. This works both ways, even given the situation where the performer thinks that the show was bad, but then a spectator comes up and raves how good it was. (When this happens, I always have to try to resist the temptation to apologize for each and every mistake. Just because I thought it sucked, doesn't mean I should ruin it for them as well.)

Steven Ragatz

[Chance]

4 hands are better than 2

D: "Betty come up here and let Marissa have a go."

[pixiejester]

B

If you're going to tell someone that they're crap, tell them how to improve.

[thatjugglingfool]

More “who” than “how”

I think it’s often the source of the critique that rubs the wrong way.
How well do we respect the source of advice?
What is our preconceived opinion of the person?
Do we suspect an ulterior motive in other party?
Do we THINK the other person is showing disrespect? (whether they are or not)

I have a friend who I perform stand-up comedy with. Several other comedians have told me they think he’s a jerk for telling them a joke isn’t funny after they ask for his opinion.
His intentions are always pure, his tact just tends to take long vacations.

When someone comes off as being a jerk it isn’t always intentional, most of the time it is, but not always.

Sometimes if we can get past “who” a critique is coming from we can learn exactly what we need to.

[Marcus Wilson]

B:

I think people should be honest blunt but not insulting.

If someones act/joke/routine whaterver sucks you should tell them and tell them why.

But you shouldnt insult them.

For example if someone uses a joke that isnt funny.

This is helpful
You should say something like this: That joke didn't work/ The punch line makes no sense/ The punch line is predictable/ The set up is to long/ The punch line is not funny enough for that long of set up.

This is not helpful
You shouldnt say something like this: Your comedy is so bad it makes me want to vomit until I die/ Being kicked in the crotch is more fun than listening to your mouth spew out worthless attempts at being funny.

[Stretch]

.

of course, if the insults are very, very,very,very,very,very,very,very,very, funny . . . !

[Stephon]

Re: do we care how we are critiqued by our peers?

Originally posted by em
A: tell them "i'm sorry, your shit in bed"

I just hope that "your" was missing an apostrophe before the "r" and an "e" after, and it wasn't a "you" with an extra "r" at the end.

[em]

ah!

ah my god! i can't believe he shat in my bed! god thats disgusting!
yeah, i think an apostrophe will help the incontinence. Although, actually, if he shat in my bed i would probably say "you're shit in bed you dirty bugger at least warn me next time you need a poo"
(sorry, is that a bit below the belt? HAHAHHAHAHAHA! now i'm making myself laugh)

[Doctor Eric]

em, your analogy is a bit off.

It would be closer to reality if, after said pathetic-excuse-for-coitus, the offender stared at you, beaming, and asked "was it good for you, too?" At which point the response would be dictated by whether or not you ever wanted to relive the experience. "Do you have a sister? Preferably with a pulse?" Might be a good one. Maybe "Put your hands on the wall, look straight ahead, and don't scream or I'll slit your your !@#?ing throat." Might also work, depending on the parties involved of course. Different strokes for different folks and all.

As far as the real situation goes, I'm not getting naked in front of any of you !@#?s.

If you don't want to be insulted, then baring yourself for public display may not be the best career choice. We're all performers here, and that is the only membership card that you need. It is somewhat implied that we are family here. That goes both ways. Either deal with the fact that your uncle is drunk and abusive, or get adopted. I don't understand the time people waste whining and crying about being "insulted" by people that
A) insult people for a living
and
B) Have their tongue planted firmly in their cheek.

Get over it. Have a sense of humor, it's your job.

[Mr.Taxi Trix]

Interesting timing, as I'm taking a break between critique sessions here at my home, a church in New England, waiting for all the smokers to come in from their after-dinner.

We are finishing day 2 of a 3-day self-taught workshop, and critiquing individual performances, then writing for each other, has made up the bulk of the time. That, and Brady farting.

I've loved it. Got about three pages of notes this morning. It'll be hard work to implement some, easy to put in others. I never would have thought of a couple of them.

People have been very mindful, yet honest, here, but then, I invited folks who would be. (It also helps keep your tact up when you know you'll be sticking your neck out tomorrow.)

Great to have other eyes, who you respect, on your side.

Concerning the oral portion of the test, I think I'd lie, and tell them they were awesome.

[Marcus Wilson]

There is a time and a place when insulting is fine. If any of you ever work with me and feel like it will get you a laugh or help your show in any way to insult me and my show feel free to do it I wont be bothered. If I am ever hanging out with any of you and you want to make jokes about me and my mom as long as it's all in fun I am fine with it.

But when someone is showing their work and asking for advice you should give your opinion bluntly and honestly not make fun of or insult the work.

[em]

'ello

you gotta admit though, its a good debate huh?!?
my analogy was written with my tongue firmly rammed into my cheek....with a sense of um, i guess, irony...a difficult concept in a written forum, and a very english thing hand in hand with sarcasm i suppose...but i love that i have had some answers!

I don't insult people in my shows, but i do embarrass them i'll admit... But i am surrounded by good performers who insult for a living, and when finely honed it is fucking funny, usually.
But i 'm not talking about performing, i'm talking about helping each other off the pitch with practical honesty.

However, i am mearly talking from MY experience, and because i am paid to direct i have to figure out the sensibilites of the people in my hands, because ultimately my working methods affect the result and of course i want the work to be as good as possible! The first few days i'll go gentle, but in the following days, if i feel they can take it, i'll ram it home (IF its appropriate....) (pun intended)


Because, actually, being blunt gets to the point much quicker and with only 10 days in a freezing big top and no budget i prefer a bit of speed. But i have had to cajole and beg a performer to come out of her caravan after a particularly blunt session and had to change my approach to her. She just needed a bit of one to one time to tell her she was doing fine.


So, Dr Eric (can i call you Eric?) i reckon that really we are on the same page, saying the same thing but have different methods, but neither of us is wrong....your way will work with some people and not others, and mine too....

(i spent the last two days in a rehearsal room in a basement with no windows and i have to admit i heard myself utter the words "thats absolute bollocks" to a few ideas but thankfully the crew was as rough as i was)

anyway
Night night you lot
x
ps i'd put our video on Youtube if i could work the bloody technology out
pps maybe we should all just take our clothes off and be done with it...on second thoughts...

[Doctor Eric]

We are on the same page, em. When directing, you have to exercise tact. Subterfuge. Sometimes begging, to get what you need out of bumbling little idjits. That's why I don't put myself in that position anymore. I'm sick of stroking some nitwits ego for 3 hours to get a good 4 minutes out of them, just to move onto the next Narcisse.

However, once you're with your peers, the gloves come off. Some play good cop, some play bully, some don't realize they're playing, but the game won't change. You can try to add new rules, but you'll be the only one playing by them. It's a unique, and volatile arrangement, and it's extremely interesting from a Darwinian point of view.

Of course, I also had a bad habit of dropping acid and reading Nietzsche during my formative years...

If you can't vent on your peers, who can you vent on? Expecting others in your peer group to be mentally stable enough to deal with you according to the rules of engagement your therapist set up for you is laughable. This is a different world, you should be glad to be a part of it.

And call me eric, I haven't gone by the Doctor moniker for years, that one was a masturbatory concept altogether.