street performers for christ

[lucky_8]

never have any time to do it. so im not going to do it even though it is cool and i would start i don't have anytime so im not going to do it

[le pire]

What would jesus juggle?

[martin ewen]

There is much to discuss.

Interesting lucky 8.
You perform for Christ but don't perform for people. I always understood that Christians tried to manifest God within themselves.
But it's entirely understandable you have better things to do. I honestly wish I had sometimes.

Another thing i've always wondered about was the various relationships between an all knowing God, predestiny, free will and now you've mentioned it, luck.

Can you or anyone help me out?

[scot]

No. Your attempts to use logic in theological discussions are invalid. While christian theology is based on faith, hope and charity; your scientific arguments are grounded in facts and research.

I'm not saying that religion is illogical. I'm saying it has nothing to do with logic. The places where relgion meet up with science are either coincidental or were created to bridge the gap between the scientific and faith based worlds.

[jester]

There is no relationship between God and Predestiny. Predestiny cannot exist with God because God has granted us free will.

God, unlike predestiny can over-ride our free will at any time, whereas predestiny insists that free will has no influence over events...

I have often thought about street performing for Jesus. I often wonder why evangelists are happy to shout at nobody in particular in the hope that some one may listen to them...

[martin ewen]

jester we may be on safe grounds in an theological discussion and scot just to get it out of the way you are in fact saying that religion is illogical if you state it has nothing to do with logic, i'm all prepared for you to go "ah ha that was a joke.' but I'd have to stoop a bit to see the construction as anything more than variations of "Theoligy has no foundation in imperical logic" which is both untrue and in my opinion not exactly a side splitter either.
But to resume.
If God and predestiny cannot coincide i cannot fathom how God himself, an all knowing and all powerful being, can exist. Because if he knows everything then predestiny is automatically built into his knowlege.

And as to, having overcome that particular hurdle we then move onto him being able to overcome our free will at his whim then we have to ask firstly, is it in fact free if it can be overridden but more importantly we have to conclude that containing the sum of all knowledge would god himself be trapped within his own, obviously very very wise, future and the concept of free will itself be redundant for man and god alike.

Answers on the back of a postcard please.

[Guest]

"Consider the impasse of a one-god universe..."

You might enjoy this piece on Spare Ass Annie by Wm Burroughs

"...he can't go anywhere since he's already everywhere"

[Rachel Peters]

Mart, have you read much C.S. Lewis? He likes to explore a lot, and he began not as a Christian. "Mere Christianity" is a good one (the last few chapters, however get very experimental and feel more like he's showing off how smart he is, rather than trying to explain).

I don't claim to fully understand the co-existance of predestination and free-will, but I do believe that they both exist. I feel like this is a much better topic to be discussed face-to-face with people, rather than my inputting on a public forum, where I get stressed out because people are so eager to bite in this medium. A very wise man once told me, "I've won a lot of arguments... not necessarily a lot of hearts."

...and that C.S. Lewis.... he might be almost as smart as you. wink wink, nudge nudge.

[jester]

God can't be omnipotent because he can't build a wall that he can't leap over...


God allows free will, or maybe he just has to put up with it. Predestiny does not allow for free will. However, there is obviously some element of predestiny in the fact that God has plans and will probably see them through.

Various boffins set examinations at school and decide that 30% of the takers will be those that pass. They then set the grades according to the scores that the examinees set. So it was predestined that 30% would pass..... However, it was never really predestined which examinees would pass, some of the bright hopefuls who were polite in class did not score as well as a few of the scruffy ones who had ideas of their own but actually listened and revised in secret while feigning disinterest in front of their peers.....

So maybe predestiny and God have to compromise a little bit, but it is God who sets the destiny in my opinion but he doesn't actually like discussing this sort of thing with me..

I have however met Jesus, in person but I'm afraid I would be very arrogant to say that I knew him better than you did. I do however know that he is real. He hasn't asked me to kill anybody for him or given me licence to judge, condemn or punish. I don't think he would mind if I street performed for him though. I know he helped me a couple of weeks ago when I went for the world record..

I thank Jesus for that and for many other wonderful things in my life.

[le pire]

Does god have free will... or is "it" predestined as well?

"free will" is a human frame of mind so is it applicable to a god... for a god is not human? however where this god to intervene in the corporeal existence, would it be constrained to the same conditionalities of human existance (for example, it can be nailed to a tree until it is dead).


thus does even god have free will, or is it screwed like everyone else?

and if this god was really omnipotent, wouldn't it have forseen one of its servants ("angels") betraying it? or did it foresee it but was predestined to allow it to happen? or was it just lazy? or did it think it would help add a little drama to the creation myth...?

did "god create man in god's image," "god create man in mans image" or did "man create god in mans image"? or none of the above...

[Lynneski]

"What if God was one of us
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home"

[jester]

Hey Ettiene, you should read Paradise Lost by Milton, it addresses those very questions.

[martin ewen]

Thanks for ruining my marriage

Ok I've been corrected by my wife.
(Whose existance I have in fact proved and who continues to sleep with me, a heretic.)

Predestiny is a redundant word, it should be just Destiny, it is or isnt, there is no pre.

It comes, she says from a greek ideal of any individuals future. You make choices which branch at each choice and they can be made consciously or not and ideally they are made consciously and they move a person towards their destiny until they arrive there. You reach your destiny. Then you select another and continue. (this was all before television)

We are talking about destiny because we are not that disiplined intellectually.

We should be talking about the dichotomy that can be said to exist between free will and fate.
She has told me that jester has a valid point.
I have to leave now and pack my things.
I'll continue this from under a bridge or somewhere tomorrow.

[Ivan Bellari]

...

religion....
if religion = faith
then it is illogical

faith being ... the firm belief of something without any factual basis

but illogical does not mean silly ( as people often attatch the two )

i find it interesting that we need to make things much more connected to ourselves to understand them ....

the faiths of all people compare the gods to humans....and how close we are to them ... from mythology to modern day religion we need to think that we are similar to the gods or they to us...

however...

if a higher power was omni-aware .. and not contrained by time or space ... perhaps a revolt in heaven / corruption of the people/pain death and suffering are all part of a bigger picture ....

but in the end it don't matter...

jesus would juggle water
buddha would juggle empty bowls
allah would juggle curvy swords
zues would juggle thunderbolts
gaia would juggle hemp bags filled with beans

they would get an edge but i doubt the hat would be big ....
i mean after all .. it's just a juggling show

[Spike McGuire]

duh

It is all about a system of mathmatical truths that exsist beyond space and time.

Didn't you guys have plato when you were little?