Sharing a stage with acts who run long

[Guest]

So ok...most of my performances are not busking/hat shows, so this has never been a pressing issue before. But two days out of the year I play a festival at which busking is the main source of income; and this year an act is coming who, I'm given to understand, has a penchant for running into the next act's showtime.

Clearly the best way for this to be addressed is for mgmt to make a blanket announcements to all stage acts about the importance of sharing politely; but I thought I'd canvas the group for other strategies for handling the disappearance of your allotted time.

Thanks!

cd

[ 01-03-2003: Message edited by: The Renaissance Man ]

[ 01-03-2003: Message edited by: The Renaissance Man ]</p>

[martin ewen]

Sadly theres not much you can do . Its a personality disorder. They will look you in the eye and nod and say 'yeah sure' but once their show has started then nothing short of a foghorn will cut them short before their self defined attention feeding cycle is complete. Various justifications like, "my show is just this long, its paced, I can't cut anything "etc are simply that... justifications.
Its a combination of having a show that worked really well a decade ago and being too scared to mess with it reductively but at the same time coming up with new material that gets bolted on to the structure.
IMHO theres also a scary parallel between an infant who's been weaned prematurely and carried that loss and dissapointment through life until they're first successful street show. They then wallow in that warm milk, nipple sucking ,center of the universe heaven until they are sated. (I recommend burping them after their shows)
If that takes 70 mins rather that the 40 they have been given then so be it but you have to recognise that its a subconcious thing, they have no control over their impulses, they are basicly automations trying to compensate for the tragic withdrawl of a tit in their formative years.
The fact that they have to act like a tit themselves is lost on them.
These people cannot be reasoned with or controlled, they are beyond help and should be pitied. They should have their own festival and they should be tortured by giving them audiences with reduced attention spans.
They should be incouraged to switch addictions and drink themselves to death as that way we can get on with our lives without being subjected to their pathetic transparent attempts to gain back the impossible at our expense.

[Pyromancer]

Hey Martin!

Although I fully agree with you that performers who take more time than they are granted are not acting in a very considerate way, I still would like to suggest that you don't bother us with all the agression you appearently built up by letting those people run all over you over the years. Considering your overly frustrated post, you have got a problem, mate. Get over it. <img src="graemlins/haha.gif" border="0" alt="[ha ha]" />

Yes, it's annoying when a performer runs terribly late and I have to wait for him. But as soon as I start my show, it's not my problem anymore. If I am granted 30 minuits, I'll play 30 minuits. It's not my task to make up for other people's behaviour in this particular case. And as an added bonus, I'll start my show with more adrenaline in my veins than usual, because I am slightly pissed off. It always works and usually just makes me work better...

[Mr.Taxi Trix]

Ditto, but they should also be bare-bottom spanked in public.


This is one of my Favorite pet peeves. Martin is right in the brain-free blindness some of these acts achieve around time. Blithe. Precious.

It is pathetic, yes, but also it takes money away from other acts, which makes it a pathos we all quietly finance. I shouldn't name names, but consistent offenders include The Mullet, Pie Face, and, oh hell, the Calypso Tumblers. I've told 'em all to their face that they are out of line on that score. Johnny Fox and I shared a pitch with the Tumblers in Denver, were in no mood for their intimidation tactics, (scary but transparent) and made it perfectly clear that if they ran long, we would. Suddenly, the were done on time, every show, all day.

If time queens knew they would skip a show if they went long, they would not run long. Talk to your producer.

Is there a way for festivals to clean this up without turning into temporal fascists? I'm beyond curious. I looked at it in this Waterlooo review: http://www.performers.net/cgi-bin/ul...c&f=5&t=000056
"How could they improve it? I don't know. Waterloo has a homey touch that makes you comfortable, and the greenroom is now on the ground floor: whew. I didn't even mind the dorm housing this year. They might take a page out of Denver's book, and have daily cast meetings, where they could put in some accountability around show lengths. (One hour and twenty-two minutes on main pitch is wrong, no matter how you slice it, and knowing blatant transgressions would be announced and/or penalized with a skip in rotation would stop them cold.) That’s it, and all the fests could use that template, actually. Down with time queens who overeat from the fest bowl. Enough of the soapbox."

This is a valuable conversation, because when you are waiting around for some ass to finally wrap it and get off your scheduled pitch, your mindset deteriorates, and often, your ability to perform well diminishes.

[ 01-03-2003: Message edited by: Mr.Taxi Trix ]</p>

[martin ewen]

Pyro
'As soon as I start my show, its not my problem anymore."
Sounds suspiciously close to the problem being addressed.
In the real world, these things sort themselves out fairly swiftly.
Its only really an issue at festivals and as such is really the casting directors or event organisers responsibility.
I think my aggression is fairly well placed, sorry if you don't, because as you know your opinion means a great deal to me.
I'm a superior fuck its true and part of the reason is that on my travels I would usually check out the queue of juggling drones with their bikes and their flames and their straightjackets and their poached personalities (some of them are my friends, tragic really)
and go off and make my own pitch and be done and in the bar before the line was anywhere near finished.
Nothing 'over the years' has added to the frustration I initially exploited in entertaining strangers at their own expense to combat my own inexpicable dissapointment with reality.
Ask around...If anything I'm getting kinder as I age.
Never liked selfish people much. which is what this threads about.
The every man for himself thing sort of conflicts humorously with 'I wait on the pitch all day for my turn cos I'm celebrating my independant lifestyle.'
If you can't adapt, to suit the consensus, then work elsewhere, where there is none.
And as an administrator, if you cant get any adaptation from a performer, ie 30 mins, 40 mins, 10 min pieces, then employ someone who can.

[Pyromancer]

[quote]Originally posted by martin ewen:
<strong>Pyro
'As soon as I start my show, its not my problem anymore."
Sounds suspiciously close to the problem being addressed.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I was afraid you could conceive it this way, so I should have known you would...
I like being flexible and I am likely to be, but in a festival atmosphere the main concern should be with the organizers. And yes, I have had worse shows because someone takes his time a little too long, but also because someone a little further ahead stupidly decides it's 'his turn' now and ruins a good hat just minuits before I was about to end anyway.
Somewhere I wonder wether you, with a 'I'll just find a spot of my own' attitude might create your own problem by stepping on the toes of other performers. But that depends on your distance from the 'usual pitch'.
Once I start my show, I'll hunt for the best one for this opportunity, although it will as good as never run longer than the time I am designated - actually I don't think I ever did until now. But I won't rush myself either, to make up for the time that others took without thinking about other people.
It's all a matter of flexibility and being considerate. I don't like it if people are inconsiderate, but I don't like myself if I get overly agressive about it. And during a festival, I think one of the main concerns should be not only to make our money, but also to have a good time together and do our best to make it happen together.
Running late doesn't fit very well in this line of behaviour, but sometimes it just happens. Just as schedule changes and other little annoyances...

[Lynneski]

There's two ways to handle this problem - proactively and brushfire.

If the producer knowingly books an artist who runs long shows (ie - 1) they've asked, and/or 2) the artist has informed them), then they know what they're presenting and can accommodate such in a schedule. And even if when an adjusted schedule is kept, there will still be small amounts of whining about X act holding the pitch for so long.

More often, an artist keeps hold of a pitch without having schedule say-so, increasing the ire of fellow cast members, and sometimes wearing out their welcome back.

I've dealt with persistent offenders thrice, twice forearmed, and once a bit blindsided. In the former case, the schedule was the schedule, but it was hard to manage the breaks on a multi-pitch site once one performance threw the historical rhythm of the show off. It became a "go when you get the nod" situtation, which always feels a bit seat-of-yer-pants. One of the known situations involed a gear-heavy installation that needed extra strike time to clear the pitch. Their show was still within standard range, and didn't seem to provoke the ire of fellow artists as much as the one who was knowingly booked for a longer performance time, even though both were known in advance.

The latter case was a situation where an artist I'd previously known to be responsive and cooperative kept continually going over time, despite repeated requests to keep to the times respected by others. I've never come so close to breaking a circle (save once when I actually did, in a dire emergency) as I did with that artist. I've rarely been so hot under the collar as I was in that situation. I unfortunately pulled the "do you want to continue working this festival" card, and hope not to have to do so gain. And ultimately, I will be *extremely* reluctant to work with this artist again.

I don't think the best way for mngt to deal with this is by making "share nicely" announcements. I think mngt needs to make plans that work, ahead of time. Failing that, you need to notify (again and again, singly or as a group) mngt of the problem and that you expect something to be done (adjust the schedule, change the rotation, edit part of a show -gasp). It's unforgiveable when management goes on blithely ignoring the increasing antagonism that happens in these situations. It's their job to keep things flowing - both the scheduled shows and the peace among artists.

Utimately, I think Martin's right about it being some kind of hereditary disease. Folks who do this repeatedly, even in the face of pleadings, warnings and consequences, have absolutely no concept of time or of sharing the space with others once they enter that circle. My solution? Burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice, shame on me. I no longer hire them. Simple.

[ 01-03-2003: Message edited by: Lynneski ]</p>

[Mr.Taxi Trix]

Yah Bravo, Lynne. We've sat outside a circle together and rolled our eyes, haven't we?

Time queens are not stupid. Look, unless they're presenting pure drivel by punter standards, (rare, that.) they get more money for a longer show. The overhead is in place, they've moved all their gear, thousands in adverts have brought these huge crouds, and well gee, why not linger, and look, there's the peel off from Another circle! Look mom, no ethical roadblocks! Its unfair and listen, it is neither unconscious nor unintentional. Nothing complicated: longer show, more money. Our money.


And as for you, tall, dark, and superior,

[quote]Originally posted by martin ewen:
<strong> juggling drones with their bikes and their flames and their straightjackets and their poached personalities (some of them are my friends, tragic really)
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, it is. If only you had a wider circle of superior types to choose from, if only their baser, common natures weren't offset by their potential as resources, or if only cynicism paid. Tragic, all around. Mimey pain in my ass.

Pyro, you are right in that Martin can draw people from any circle. (Including the Dutchmen, let the record show.) But he doesn't. He's a moveable feast,
if you like that sort of thing, and creates a circle by his very being.

[Lynneski]

Heh, heh. Mail from Martin and a post from Trix-i, all within the hour. Hard to tell its a snowy midwinter night here in the Northeast, eh lads?

Ooooh, all this has gotten me thinking of testier times. Karl, I second your notion to slightly edit yer previous post. No need to name names, though the right combination of letters hardly keeps anyone who knows the tale from identifying the culprits. Suffice to say I've heard the wide-eyed statement "But my show has *always* been 45 minutes long" enuf to last my next kharmic turn.

Pyro, I gotta take exception to one of yer points. Martin's agression doesn't stem from "letting those people run all over you over the years", rather, from a series of importunate incidents stemming from the night he got inadvertently left behind in the primates zone of the zoo as a young lad. I've seen him peel focus from circles, more often than the opposite, and he can hold his own against most - including drunken louts and roving bands of over-caffeinated brash near-teens. (Sorry, Celia, I had to do it again.)

No, those who play the "hah, hah, I'm in the circle and you can't stop me" game are not only stealing the bread from the performer slated next, but are buggering up *everyone's* income by backing up the whole schedule and messing with the flow of the breaks. It can take a half a day to recover from one overly long show. And it almost always means someone else has lost the break the timepig took.

I would ask "Is it really worth the extra $50 to piss off all your colleagues and the people you're working for?" I guess, their answer can only be "Who cares."

Oh, and Pyro, I'd prefer that performers don't have to start their show with an extra measure of anger-driven aggression. It may work for you or your character, but it won't work for most and can be off-putting to an audience.

[ 01-03-2003: Message edited by: Lynneski ]</p>

[Pyromancer]

Let it be said that I find people who make me wait just as annoying as all of you and that I do agree with you all... It's just that I read Martin's message on my bear stomach and that I had to reply. At least I want to give it a go to see everything from the sunny side...

I can tell you: when people let me wait, I am not happy and I hate it if people just turn a blind I to others and I don't like letting people wait and... etc. etc. etc.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lynneski:
<strong>Pyro, I gotta take exception to one of yer points. Martin's agression doesn't stem from "letting those people run all over you over the years"
</strong>

Hey, what else could I do after reading that message on my bear stomach than playing a smartass? [img]wink.gif[/img]

<strong>Oh, and Pyro, I'd prefer that performers don't have to start their show with an extra measure of anger-driven aggression. It may work for you or your character, but it won't work for most and can be off-putting to an audience.</strong>

When I start, it's not the anger anymore that drives me, but the adrenaline it left... <img src="graemlins/haha.gif" border="0" alt="[ha ha]" />

[Doctor Eric]

Well, alright, now the kissing and making up is over...
I've been following the thread for the last few hours, and it wasn't until Lynneski's last post that I realized that these alleged performers you speak of are only 45-minute acts. Pardon my ignorance (at least in this case), but I don't do festivals. Well I did one, and it was a total wash-out (I won't mention which one because the organizers do deserve a second chance), but part of the problem was that they had scheduled each and every one of us for 30 minute time slots, which, in my opinion, was idiotic. So, basically, I'm just curious, do these festivals only do 30 minute slots, or are you just referring to certain pitches and/or scheduling situations?

[Jim]

I say have a giant ticking clock on each pitch in plain view for the performer. Once the show begins, the clock starts ticking. After the performer goes over their alloted time, the clock keeps track of "negative time." This "negative time" is then added to their next show. So if the performer is given 45 minutes per show and they go for an hour (15 minutes over), the next show they are only given 30 minutes. If they go for an hour again, they lose a show. This would give every performer equal "performing minutes" during the festival.

If a performer like Pie Face chooses to do an hour and 30 minutes, that counts for two 45 minute slots. He could actually have his two night shows rolled into one. He would just request that his 90 minutes of "night time" be used at once.

Obviously, there are circumstance where people are forced to take more time on the crowd building end (slow traffic times, rain, etc.) but there is no reason to milk a festival crowd for over an hour once you have two or three rows sitting down. Just get on with the damn show and entertain them... and leave them wanting MORE.

Jim

P.S. Part of the problem may be with the crowds themselves... Canadians are so darn PATIENT! They'll actually sit and watch a guy with a mullet do every line in the book for over an hour... and then PAY! Try that in the states; you'd go through three separate crowds in that time.
<img src="graemlins/haha.gif" border="0" alt="[ha ha]" />

[Mr.Taxi Trix]

Amen. It doesn't even need to be a huge clock. Jim, are you obsessed with huge clocks? As long as the queens know the consequence. Eric, we are talking festivals of 45 mins, 30 mins, either one will do. We are discussing some acts which normally consider the first 45 minutes to be a good solid build, and go from there into another 45. really. OK, off to the barmitzvah. sigh.


Lynne, you were right, and Martin concurred, but the edit of that post really came from the promise of checks, in Canadian funds, unfortunately, as representative of a small token of the hat money I've lost to their time psychosis. I wish.

[ 01-04-2003: Message edited by: Mr.Taxi Trix ]</p>

[Lynneski]

Ah, forget the technology. I say we just go back to the hook. Immediate, visceral, requires only one operator, and incredibly effective. 'Course, we could just step another few eras back, and reach for the guillotine.

Trix, I think your envelope will arrive about the same time as my big bag 'o "I wanna throw a fest anywhen anywhere" cash arrives. Off-season is for dreaming.

[Mr.Taxi Trix]

All names have been changed to protect me from cries of "innocent".

Lynne, you make an excellent point, and I seem to recall an act in Windsor getting the hook on mainstage. Was this your baleful influence? The hook itself could have used an upgrade, but at least it got the cheezy bastard off the pitch. I was relieved. Its one solution...

We could make them do shows in groups of five in venues much to small: that would be wright. Or make them give their hats to charity, but that would be wong.

I do love the timing idea, but it does raise the impossible question of when does a show begin. Those lull times will nip you in the ass on this one. When does gathering end?

Also, how deep into overtime until it becomes legally permissable to shoot a performer?