USA - scapegoat of all the worlds ills

**Danny Hustle** · Apr-19-2002, 12:24 PM

Hi Chance,

This is a neat post, but the problem is some people just love to hate. The USA just happens to make a nice fat target.

To some people nothing feels finer than pointing out the short comings of others. They don't concern themselves with things like the truth or fact.

You can't reason with someone who is unreasonable. That's why more often than not I don't bother (anymore). It's just bigotry, don't get sucked in by it.

Best,

Dan-

[ 04-19-2002: Message edited by: Danny Hustle ]

**Mr.Taxi Trix** · Apr-19-2002, 02:53 PM

Your opening premise is misguided, old man. Who (other than you) said the US was to blame for all the world's ills?

**jonnyflash** · Apr-20-2002, 02:15 AM

Here's something for Chance and Danny to chew on. Love, Jonny

April 17, 2002
The United States is a safe haven for more than 1,000 torturers
BY JEAN-GUY ALLARD
An Amnesty International report recently confirmed the presence of thousands of torturers in U.S. territory, where they have found a safe haven far from the reach of their countries’ justice systems, and described the United States as a “refuge” for these criminals. Tom�s Ricardo Anderson Kohalsu, a major in the Peruvian army, is accused of having tortured two women intelligence officers in 1997, by raping and beating them and subjecting them to electric shocks.
Responsible for the deaths of hundreds of innocent people, Salvadoran generals Carlos Eugenio Vides Casanova and Jos� Guillermo Garc�a emigrated to the United States in 1989.

The U.S. government has acknowledged that more than 1,000 persons suspected of being torturers have found it possible to enter the United States, where they have not been pursued despite the adoption in 1994 of legal provisions authorizing the justice system to bring to trial the authors of acts of torture, notes Amnesty from London, according to the French wire agency AFP. That non-governmental organization is accusing the authorities of having failed to act while being aware of the identities of many suspects and possessing evidence against them. According to William Schultz, director of the organization’s U.S. section, some 150 alleged torturers have entered the United States in the last eight years, but none have been pursued by the justice system. The U.S. government prefers to ignore, expel persons or cover up the cases, he commented.In the 100-page publication titled USA: A safe haven for torturers, Amnesty criticized Washington’s lack of action, referring to it as a failing that risks turning the United States into a sanctuary for human rights’ abusers from all over the world.In 1994, Washington ratified the Convention against Torture, which later became the U.S. law coded 18. U.S.C. & 2340.Those who torture and kill in other countries should not evade justice and live in the United States with no fear of arrest or legal persecution, Schulz commented, adding that the United States government is adept at imprisonment, as it demonstrated with the detention of around 1,200 individuals in the wake of the September 11 attacks. Thus it is ironic that it has refused to act against 150 individuals living in the country, when there is reason to believe they are responsible for far more serious crimes.The report denounces the presence in U.S. territory of Tom�s Ricardo Anderson Kohalsu, a Peruvian military major, accused of having tortured two women intelligence officers in 1997, by raping and beating them and subjecting them to electric shocks. One of the victims, Leonor La Rosa, suffered various spinal injuries that left her a paraplegic. The body of the other woman, Mariela Lucy Barreto, was found decapitated with the hands severed.In March 2000, Kohalsu was interrogated by the Justice Department but was released after an intervention by the State Department and authorized to leave the country.The report also mentions the case of Salvadoran generals Carlos Eugenio Vides Casanovo (commander of the National Guard in El Salvador from 1979 to 1983) and Jos� Guillermo Garc�a (Defense Minister during the same period), who emigrated to the United States in 1989.Both officers directed the work of army and security units that committed crimes against humanity and acts of torture, in addition to arbitrary detentions.In 1993, the Truth Commission, created with the backing of the United Nations, recognized those individuals’ responsibility for the deaths of hundreds of innocent people.

[img]wink.gif[/img]

**jonnyflash** · Apr-20-2002, 02:18 AM

Looks like I took the bait, Chance. You knew I just wouldn't be able to stay out of this thread, didntcha. <img src="graemlins/square.gif" border="0" alt="[square smile]" />

**Chance** · Apr-20-2002, 04:55 AM

The only 'bait' that I want anyone to take from my post is this:

[quote]...If you see an injustice work to fix it. But start in your own back yard. Wasting even one breath railing against the USA without first doing the same about the problems of your own country is a complete waste of effort at best, and totally hypocritical at worst.

And should this actually happen I am convinced that you will find so much wrong in your own home, street, neighborhood, water source, assembly hall, trash dump, charities, nuclear facilities, etc., that you will no longer be so keen on what is happening 10,000 miles away.

Global reparations begin one household, one lifestyle, at a time. There is absolutely no other way.<hr></blockquote>

It would be a honor (and highly altruistic, I know) to think that you had really taken the bait I had offered. But hope springs eternal...

See you there,
Chance

**Danny Hustle** · Apr-20-2002, 11:20 PM

[quote]Originally posted by jonnyflash:
Here's something for Chance and Danny to chew on. Love, Jonny

April 17, 2002
The United States is a safe haven for more than 1,000 torturers

[img]wink.gif[/img] <hr></blockquote>

**Snipped my spleen venting**

Johnny,

One of these days I hope our paths cross. If they do I am going to sit you down for a couple of hours, buy you several beers, and you and I are going to talk about anything and everything with two huge exceptions, politics and religion.

Best,

Dan-

[ 04-22-2002: Message edited by: Danny Hustle ]

**Peter Voice** · Apr-21-2002, 06:02 AM

Chance, your sentiment may be admirable but your delivery is hopeless.
Your basic premise is shot down just by looking up the word "scapegoat" in the dictionary. The US doesn't take the blame for it's own actions, at all, let alone someone else's. And any suggestion that the US might be to blame for all of the world's ills is also ludicrous. No Australian in their right mind would blame any-one else but a staggeringly stupid electorate for our current government and it's atavistic policies.
A lot of us work very hard in our own backyard, see the "Pigs Might Fly" line (new today). To suggest that that all we need to think about is our own patch is to say "don't worry about what's around the corner", "ignore what the other guy is doing", etc. That's stupid.
I've bitten the bait and spat it out. It has no substance or flavour and won't catch this flounder. When you're doing something worthwhile in your borough, chance, let us know.

PS. Why can't you give us(the Flying Pig Project) a silly poem?????
Are you a wuss or do you really think we're going to rip you off or something? Surely, you know how valuable kids are, and how priceless silliness is?
I wonder if it's the fact that it's me asking. I guess we all have our prejudices.

[ 04-21-2002: Message edited by: Peter Voice ]

**Chance** · Apr-21-2002, 01:16 PM

Peter, while your two cents is always appreciated, me doth think thou doest protest too much.

Your letter just now contains so many 'baits' that I do not possibly see how I could respond directly to the substance without getting caught up into yet another flame war with you.

Just because this is the "Blah, Blah, Blah" section doesn't mean that this is all that we should do here; I am positive that Jim hopes for much better.

Care to try again with something a lot less antagonistic and a lot more inspiring?

Or must I wait until pigs fly?

**The Had Matter** · Apr-26-2002, 07:21 AM

ok chance I'll take a bite.

"...If you see an injustice work to fix it. But start in your own back yard. Wasting even one breath railing against the USA without first doing the same about the problems of your own country is a complete waste of effort at best, and totally hypocritical at worst.
And should this actually happen I am convinced that you will find so much wrong in your own home, street, neighborhood, water source, assembly hall, trash dump, charities, nuclear facilities, etc., that you will no longer be so keen on what is happening 10,000 miles away"

Ok I'm here in the uk and have done a lot of work to open the eyes of people to what is going on in environmental and political circles otherwise I woulden't venture to say anything. - one of the big things I think you have missed however is that America is one of the worst offenders around for politial blunders, environmental disasters millatary mistakes etc. and as one of the biggest and unfortunately the most powerful nations around it should be forgeing ahead and setting an example - what's happening with the co2 emissions for example?.

To quote "if you see an injustice work to fix it" What have you done recently about any of the injusticies imposed by the USA - to pick a favurite topic - how about Cuba - Why does the US still feel threatened by a tiny country with a dyeing dictator? - is it because it STILL has a better health service? - or just because they're better at baseball.

I'm too tired to continue this general rant any longer having just left one of my finals so I'll finish.

<img src="graemlins/jester.gif" border="0" alt="[jester]" />

**Doctor Eric** · Apr-26-2002, 10:31 PM

I wasn't going to post here, as Chance and I have argued about all of this before, but, Chance I do have to mention that one wastes no breath railing against the USA. It is called expression and communication, the US these days is a monster machine that is out of control. Sure, alot can be accomplished here, and all of us American's are pretty priveledged, but alot of these issues are out of our control. We can make alot of changes in our society, but we CAN NOT change US Foreign Policy, because it is all relvolving around money, and so ALL the power players in the economy have their hand in it. These guys play hard ball, you have to to become the most powerful men in the world, and if nations full of people, as well as our own citezens are dying to pad these guys' pocket book, it's gonna make the rest of us pretty mad. I know this sounds depressing, and the truth is that iit is depressing, nevertheless, it's the way things are.

Of course, this doesn't mean anyone should stop trying, and actually the bitching is good for the soul.

**Peter Voice** · Apr-29-2002, 07:54 AM

So, chance, I don't see the point. If you didn't want to discuss the issue, why did you post something here?
If you just wanted to make a statement you could have done that on your own web site.
You're looking like a US foreign policy maker, "Wow, it's getting complicated, let's run away".
You really are a pratt.

**Chance** · Apr-29-2002, 12:26 PM

Maybe so Peter, but I am also not the only person here. Anyone who feels the urge can debate with you.

For my part, I am always open for a good debate -- but I think our ideas of what qualifies for 'good debate' might differ a great deal. To me it does NOT involve personal attacks, flaming, mud slinging, et al.

I like to play chess and backgammon, too. But I won't stay at the table very long if all my opponent does is call names, pout, yell obsenities, knock the pieces around, and so on, no matter how well he strategizes. I don't mind losing to a better player, and I can happily wait until I find an opponent who wins with integrity.

**Pyromancer** · Apr-29-2002, 03:02 PM

Chance wrote:

Fact: Modern recorded human history reaches back roughly 10,000 years.
(...)
Fact: The United States of America is less that 250 years old.

Call me stupid, call me crazy, call me blindly patriotic, call me anything you like, but I can hardly see how such limited influence on the overall picture of humanity can be put to blame for all the worlds present ills.

I won't call you names at all. But it's not unfair to say that he history of the United States goes back over 500 years, when Columbus hit the Caribbean coasts. It proofed to be the start of extensive colonization by Europeans, mayor shifts in power relations between native american tribes. It was an important another chapter in the growing history of trans global traffic networks as we know it today.

And about your statement on limited influence: while it can take ages to create a building, it can be torn down in only seconds. Look at the rainforest: an ecosystem built that took thousands of years to develop, is being destroyed rapidly. Look at the World Trade center: two proud buildings that took a great deal of effort to build them, were easily and quickly destroyed.
Being able to cut down trees, gives you the responsibility not to cut them all down, how profitable it may be. How easy an option it may seem to fly your plane into some people you don't like, as a human you have the responsibility not to do so once you are able to fly the plane.
Being the worlds supreme power gives a nation the responsibility not to abuse that power. The US are not always as responsible as they could be, for example by ignoring mondial agreements on environmental issues as CO2 emmissions.

Chance wrote:

This would have to literally translate that during just the past 80 years the USA has somehow managed to do more to influence the world than for all the 10,000 years before it.

Bullshit.

Why is this bullshit? Explain your bold statement. So much has changed since the first Europeans landed on the American continent. It was the start of major changes in mondial power relations between different peoples.
With the beginning of the industrial revolutiuon in the 18th century, man was for the first time in human history able to let fossil energy resources at work, rather than muscle power. It lead to a dramatic increase in the production of capital - as in: resources - with the Western world on top to profit from this inventions and to defend them by any means.
With the general increase in resources available, science became bigger and bigger as well. Look at the major inventions that our societies rely on today, haven't they been done rougly in the last houndred years or so?

Is this to say that there are not legitimate humanitarian claims that can be made against her? Of course not. Do we as a nation have crimes to be accounted for? Of course we have. But I dare say that for every claim against the US there could be an identical claim made against every other modern civilization now operating on this globe.

THIS IS NOT AN EXCUSE. I am not attempting to excuse even a single legitimate claim against the USA. But to pretend that she is the only one -- or even the worst offender in every case -- is preposterous.

When engaged in a fight, someone has to be the smartest party to end it. It doesn't make sense at all to look at what others do - as you correctly state at the end of your message.
But as I said before: power comes with a responsibility. It's simply not enough to show off that you are still the most powerfull party when you get involved in a conflict. It works temporary, but in the end you are endlessly sowing the seeds of hate that will grow up tomorrow.
So it does not make sense to bomb the hell out of innocent people, only because there may be enemies amongst them. Whether it be with nuclear power, napalm or cluster bombs, it doesn't make any sense at all. I would be the last one to say that the US are the only force that misused their power at innocent civilians, nor do I want to say that they brought only evil over the planet.
But I do want to repeat that being the worlds' only dominant power left, they carry the greatest responsibility of all powers. And if that task isn't carried out with the greatest possible care, there is a major risk that frustrated fractions - fair or not - will continue to sneak upon the US as they did before.
It's a hell of a job and it's not the easiest way if you continuesly have to think about the faith of others. But power comes at a price and if you look for power, you simply have to take the responsibilitie that comes with it.

Chance wrote:

What is my answer for all this? Easy. If you see an injustice work to fix it. But start in your own back yard. Wasting even one breath railing against the USA without first doing the same about the problems of your own country is a complete waste of effort at best, and totally hypocritical at worst.

And should this actually happen I am convinced that you will find so much wrong in your own home, street, neighborhood, water source, assembly hall, trash dump, charities, nuclear facilities, etc., that you will no longer be so keen on what is happening 10,000 miles away.

Global reparations begin one household, one lifestyle, at a time. There is absolutely no other way.

I agree with you very much, it's definately better to deal with the problems that are in reach and to change the world for the good as close to home as possible. But living in a globally connected world, one cannot just ignore everything that's happening one corner too far away. Simply because actions in our own neighbourhood may have very real effects houndreds of miles away - even though not clearly visible for us.
Indeed, be good close to home, before you start to mess with other places. But that applies to both humans and nations. Everybody has it's own responsibility. But doing your thing more or less responsibly, still doesn't mean you can turn a blind eye to injustices done by others. It's not a bad thing if people(s) monitor eachother and give some critical input when necissary. Listen to them. It can be the eyeopener needed.

**The Had Matter** · Apr-30-2002, 06:50 AM

Well said
<img src="graemlins/jester.gif" border="0" alt="[jester]" />

USA - scapegoat of all the worlds ills

USA - scapegoat of all the worlds ills

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