Out yourself here!

[Jenny]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Triona:
I don't understand why any gay person would support the "born that way" theory. If the society as a whole accepted that, scientist would work until they found the "gay" gene and then parents could have testing done so they could "eliminate" what society (not me) perceives as a defect. That would be a crime in itself as some of the most creative people I've met were gay.
************************************

Triona:
HUH?!?!

Maybe a gay person would "support" that theory if that is what s/he has EXPERIENCED.

And, since WHEN has the scientific community devoted its research
to altering the moral or behavioral outcome of genetics???

~~~
Furthermore, since you believe it IS a choice,
and you find gay people so creative,
WHY DON'T YOU WANT TO TRY IT?
COME ON Triona, don't make me BEG.

You know what they say;
BIG CATS are DANGEROUS!
But a little pussy never hurt anyone.

[This message has been edited by Jenny (edited 12-05-2001).]

[Stephon]

It is possible (likely) that Jim, Triona, and Scot are all correct, at least in part. Personally, I have gay friends and acquaintances who fall into all three categories: gay from "birth"; abused as a child and then later gay, and; straight for a large part of their life, then realized/decided they were gay.

Like most issues, this is not a black or white situation (although groups with a pro- or anti- gay agenda try to make it one.) Perhaps some people are predisposed to being gay, and of those, some need a catalyst--such as childhood abuse--to bring that aspect of themselves to light; those of you who get the radio program "Loveline" are aware that a large number of the gay callers reveal that they were sexually and/or emotionally abused as children (of course, it's possible that only the one's who were abused have a real need to call the show). By the same token, many hyper-sexual straights ("womanizers" and "sluts") were abused as children. So did the abuse "make" them the way they are or just accentuate it?

The question that occurs to me is *why* is the nature vs. nurture question being asked? (I don't mean by you, Jenny, I mean by society.) Do we need to clarify the issue so we can say, "Oh well, it's not their (my) fault, they were (I was) born that way."? Or, "They chose to be gay, they can choose not to be."? Or, "They're only gay because they were abused, so we can cure them of it."? The fact that it's even an issue says to me that gays are still looked at as a puzzle that needs to be solved, instead of just as people.


This is were I'm supposed to make some pithy witticism to balance out the seriousness of the stuff I wrote above, but my computer froze up as I finished typing the last sentence and I had to do it all over again and I'm tired and grouchy. Please insert your own clever comment here.

------------------
Cheers,
~Stephon

[This message has been edited by Stephon (edited 12-06-2001).]

[Triona]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Triona:
HUH?!?!

Maybe a gay person would "support" that theory if that is what s/he has EXPERIENCED.

And, since WHEN has the scientific community devoted its research
to altering the moral or behavioral outcome of genetics???

How can one truly say that they were born gay? We live a fair number of years before we're really aware of our sexuality. I don't remember what happened to me when I was an infant, I doubt most people do. I've heard people say that they were gay for as long as they could remember, or since they were aware of their sexuality.

As for trying it, I'm sorry but I'm not interested. If it works for you, that's great. I do, however, resent the fact that you don't seem willing to accept that I'm hetrosexual when I am willing to accept that you are not.

Now back to the innuendos.....

[Jim]

Triona, did you CHOOSE to be straight? Or do you just 'know' you're straight?

Ask 10 gay people the same question and they'll answer the same way you did.

It's not a choice to BE gay or BE straight. It is only a choice to admit you are or not.

I don't know ANY gay people who 'chose' to be gay... if anything, they CHOOSE to be (or at least 'act') straight to appease their family, friends and society until they just can't take it anymore and then come out and admit to themselves and the world who they really are. And they're usually much happier.

Stephon put it very well... Gay people are not a puzzle to be 'solved.'

Homosexuality isn't something we need to cure... Homophobia is.

Jim

[Triona]

I agree with you completely Jim. I was only using the parameters that Airborne gave me. I don't believe that there is a "gay" gene. Therefore it is not genetic. I referred to it as a choice for that reason. Unless it is genetically programmed into a human being, a down-syndrome person can't choose not to have the condition, we have a choice. Like you said, many gays act "straight" to fit in. If they were genetically programmed this would not be possible.

As for my making a choice to be straight, yes I have made a choice. Otherwise I might take Jenny up on the proposition. I don't think that my choice should be vilefied any more than someone who elects an alternative life-style.

I never said that homosexuality was a disease that needed a cure, and I agree that homophobia needs to be eliminated. I think both Scot and Stephon made good points.

[martin ewen]

Could people please stop using airbornes parameters, its unsanitary.
My sex life with chickens has a long and interesting history.
It began at Thanksgiving when I was 7 and it wasn't till many years later that I actually formed a romantic attachment with a live bird.
After being fired from my third KFC for unwelcome additions to the herbs and spices .My christian youth leader suggested I move out of town till the population regained their appetites.
(I never understood why the gag reflex was so predominant in my presence)
I went to work at my uncles farm and that is where I first fell in love with my first early riser.....
To be cont....

[Airborne Dan]

Wow this thread is really starting to get interesting. Well put Jim, lets eliminate homophobia, and while we're at it let's also get rid of racism, sexism and any other ism that attempts to group people into general categories. Every life is a universe.

In defense of Triona, I must say I would normally disagree with her that homosexuality is a choice. But for once I'm going to agree with this widely held and normally incorrect sentiment. You see I'm not just a juggler / comedian. I also do a strong man show in which I rip phone books in half, bend steel bars with my bare hand and juggle 16 pound bowling balls. I'm 6 foot 3 and my body is covered with rippling muscle. And so for example, if I "chose" that Pokie Poke was gay I could pretty much hold him down and make him homosexual.

And Martin, my parameters are unsanitary? Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black. You cock sucker.

[Triona]

Um Dan,

Since you have no idea what Pokie looks like (the name is quite deceiving), that's a pretty bold statement.

[Jenny]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Triona:
How can one truly say that they were born gay? We live a fair number of years before we're really aware of our sexuality. *****************************

Then how could one "truly say" they were born HETEROSEXUAL?

*****************************
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Triona:
As for trying it, I'm sorry but I'm not interested. If it works for you, that's great. I do, however, resent the fact that you don't seem willing to accept that I'm hetrosexual when I am willing to accept that you are not.
*****************************

Well Triona in case you haven't noticed, so far it HASN'T worked for me!
Note the topic heading; "OUT YOURSELF HERE!"
I've been TRYING, but as of yet I seem to be a Failed Lesbian.

I've just been playing around, Triona. Forgive me!
My come-ons were intended to ENTERTAIN, not offend. I was catalyzed by your first remark about me being "eliminated competition." I thought it would be healthy to get a playful dialog going between women. But this of course would necessitate a sense of humour, which I presumed you to have.

"Vilified?" You feel vilifed? Did you really think I was that hard up for Squishy Squish POONTANG from Pennsylvania?

No matter. Your resentment is duly noted.

Well Dan, I tried. Maybe it isn't a choice afterall. Good luck w/ Pokie Pokie.

I guess I'll have to redirect my sexuality elsewhere.

So now, Martin; about you and your "sanitary" fowl...

[Triona]

Hey Jenny,

Sorry, I realize that you were just joking. It's just that other people started on me, and it kind of bothered me. Like I said, my best friend was gay and I've spent a lot of time around gay people. I don't have a problem with them, but I've dealt with my share of hetro-haters who just couldn't accept that I could be hetrosexual and still accept them for who they were. That and the fact that they treated me as bad as they claimed straight people treated them. I was evil and a homophobe because I was straight.

I think the thread just got too deep. The arguements of what makes a person gay, are people gay from birth, etc. don't really seem to have definitive answers.

I do have a sense of humor, but I'm studying to be a stockbroker and I think there's something in the study material that tries to leech it out of you

Sorry to get everyone so riled up.


P.S. It seems Martin is bringing a new definition to "choke the chicken" (okay maybe not that new)

[This message has been edited by Triona (edited 12-07-2001).]

[martin ewen]

You only choke them if theres no foreplay.
You go barging into the henhouse all riled up and grab the nearest chook then really you have no-one to blame but yourself.
(although their still cookable after accidents)
Chickens have feelings, they need to feel wanted and appreciated and some are quite broad minded (in a tiny chicken brained sort of way)
One good feature is they don't get jealous as they usually have increadibly short memories.
My advice is to stay well away from emu's however.

[Stephon]

So, Martin, if the chicken is "broad-minded" does that mean she's a lesbian?

[This message has been edited by Stephon (edited 12-07-2001).]

[martin ewen]

I am so selective in my tastes that I am only attracted to bi-sexual chickens.
(you have to watch them for a bit)
Luckily, because of my reputation as a poultry fucking panto, I get to watch my chickens, sometimes for months at a time, between gigs.

[Todd]

Fate gifted me with the chance to see Martin and his poultry fucking act a few years back, and was really a sensation. It was his birthday party material. I actually saw it at a bartmitzvah and WOW did it kill. Nothing like becoming a man by watching a sweaty drunk clown on stilts, pleasuring a grade "A" fowl. The only thing in his history that topped it was the "Vomit Show" he did in Japan.

[This message has been edited by Todd (edited 12-08-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Todd (edited 12-08-2001).]

[Barry]

i love this thread...
for the moment just a response to dan...
assuming pokie poke is a man
there is still a choice here--if you held him down you could force him to have sex.this would not make him homosexual, merely (homo) sexually abused...just a thought