it's time to steal their material...

[thatguywhojuggles]

Hello fellow performers,

Just a quick note to let you know about a performance possibility. I want to let you know about the upcoming 4th annual Humboldt Juggling & Unicycle Festival (April 30-May 2.) This year we are going with a pirate theme to our festival--Yarrghhh!

For our public show (Saturday night) we are encouraging the performers to steal or "pirate" material/tricks/routines from other jugglers. So this is your chance. If you have always wanted to show another juggler you can do their entire routine--but better, here is your chance!

To reserve your spot on stage for the Saturday night show email the Humboldt Juggling Society at jshsu@humboldt.edu

Yahrrgg!!

Oliver Red Beard

Festival Website: http://humboldt.edu/~jshsu/festival.html

Oh, and since this is a Forum, lets discuss some fantasy scenes. What big name jugglers would you like to see steal routines from each other and do them (possibly better) than the original?

[ 01-16-2004: Message edited by: thatguywhojuggles ]</p>

[Barney]

Curious to know, now that the subject is brought up, what is the policy on perfomers "borrowing" from others? I am in Key West and noticed some buskers borrowing word for word. It is clear when I see this that some can pull off a line better than others. I should also say that the one who seems to be the victim is also the one who pilfered in the first place!! I do not care so much about this, from a personal standpoint, if the busker is a juggler, unicyclist, etc. If he works a comedy club as a standup, however, and does this, I hate it.

What is that line a juggler uses when he is lighting the torches? "Do not try this at home...try it at school." Or the other one when hassled by a heckler: "I don't go to McDonalds and tell you how to do your job, do I?"


[quote]Originally posted by thatguywhojuggles:
<strong>Hello fellow performers,

Just a quick note to let you know about a performance possibility. I want to let you know about the upcoming 4th annual Humboldt Juggling & Unicycle Festival (April 30-May 2.) This year we are going with a pirate theme to our festival--Yarrghhh!

For our public show (Saturday night) we are encouraging the performers to steal or "pirate" material/tricks/routines from other jugglers. So this is your chance. If you have always wanted to show another juggler you can do their entire routine--but better, here is your chance!

To reserve your spot on stage for the Saturday night show email the Humboldt Juggling Society at jshsu@humboldt.edu

Yahrrgg!!

Oliver Red Beard

Festival Website: http://humboldt.edu/~jshsu/festival.html

Oh, and since this is a Forum, lets discuss some fantasy scenes. What big name jugglers would you like to see steal routines from each other and do them (possibly better) than the original?

[ 01-16-2004: Message edited by: thatguywhojuggles ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

[thatguywhojuggles]

[quote]Originally posted by Barney:
<strong>Curious to know, now that the subject is brought up, what is the policy on perfomers "borrowing" from others? I am in Key West and noticed some buskers borrowing word for word. It is clear when I see this that some can pull off a line better than others. I should also say that the one who seems to be the victim is also the one who pilfered in the first place!! I do not care so much about this, from a personal standpoint, if the busker is a juggler, unicyclist, etc. If he works a comedy club as a standup, however, and does this, I hate it.

What is that line a juggler uses when he is lighting the torches? "Do not try this at home...try it at school." Or the other one when hassled by a heckler: "I don't go to McDonalds and tell you how to do your job, do I?"


</strong><hr></blockquote>

Barney,

Someone, though I can't remember who, once said, "Lesser performers borrow, greater performers steal."

I remember years ago, when I was just starting out as a juggler, I met this woman at a street festival in Asheville North Carolina. She had been hired (from up north somewher--Baltimore?) to perform at this festival (Bellchere -spell?-) Anyhow, I hung out with her all day, because I wanted to watch her perform--she even let me pass clubs with her once in her routine. Anyhow, she had this line, right before lighting her torches atop her girraffe unicycle. She would say, "Does anybody have a lighter?" Then when she got one from the audience, she would say, "Nice lighter," put it in her pocket and say, "Does anybody have a nice watch?" I thought it was hilarious. I struggled for a couple of years with the temptation of using that line when I juggled fire. But deep inside me I knew it was wrong. That was HER line, she wrote it, and it would be like stealing if I used it.

Eventually I moved to Arcata, California. Within days of arriving in Arcata, I met three jugglers at a 4th of july street festival. I hung out with them, and they asked me to perform with them. When the time came in our performance to juggle fire I thought about the line that woman had used now almost 3 years ago, and 3,000 miles away. I put my morals aside, and made a decision. I would use that line! I would use it, if nothing else, to impress my new friends. I stood up in front of this big crowd of people who were eager to see us light our torches. I took a deep breath and in my mind began to commit my crime. "Does anybody have a lighter?" I barked out. Sure enough, several people offered me a lighter. I took one of them, had a good look at it, and said "Nice lighter." As soon as I put the lighter in my pocket, like a chorus behind me from the other 3 jugglers I just met, "Does anybody have a nice watch?!"

I learned a lot that day.

Yahrrgg!

Oliver

Come be a pirate for a weekend! http://humboldt.edu/~jshsu/festival.html

[ 01-18-2004: Message edited by: thatguywhojuggles ]</p>

[scot]

The reason people like the stolen material is because they think it's original. It's sad that performers would do this and even sadder if you have 3 people in the audience.

Love the idea as long as I'm not involved.

[le pire]

He's in Arcata, CA and telling people to steal material.

Let me guess, you went to Dell'Arte.

etienne

[thatguywhojuggles]

[quote]Originally posted by le pire:
<strong>He's in Arcata, CA and telling people to steal material.

Let me guess, you went to Dell'Arte.

etienne</strong><hr></blockquote>

lol... I'm a Circomedia graduate.

[le pire]

I am almost certain that the topic of plagerism has been slung around here on Pnet, but I'm too lazy to go find it. Maybe someone like Martin who has lots of time of his hands can go dig it all up [img]smile.gif[/img]

Anyway...

What I find most appalling about this event is that it not only encourages plagerism, but seeks to legitamize it. They want to get as many people up on stage ripping off our fore(head) fathers like Butterflyman, Bob Knickerson, Raspyni's, Karmazov's etc almost to say: "see look, everyone does it so it's ok!" Or just as bad, they will look at other jugglers who later acheive success and mutter to themselves "Well, he's not original. I saw him in Arcata..."

I also think it takes just as much energy to steal as it does to create. You have to go out, watch the act, remember / write down what they said, commit it to memory etc.

Why not spend the afternoon with a few friends brainstorming ideas instead...? Sure, you risk 'failing' but the rewards of success are MUCH greater.

It's also important to remember that performing is VERY much a reputation based business. Do you really want to be known as a theif?

I book acts other than myself, and I receive quite a bit of promo. One day I received videos from 3 different magicians and all three did almost EXACTLY the same routines. Line by line. Did I book any of them? Nope.

I also received a reaaally nice press kit & video from a juggler who had clearly put a lot of work into creating beautiful promo. I was excited to pop his video into the VCR and to my horror he had OVERTLY stolen the Flying Karmazov Brother's signiture routine of getting three objects from the audience and if he doesn't succeed with then throws/catches he gets a pie in the face. He even took their patter. I was so offended I threw the press kit in the trash.

Stealing is wrong.

You know this.

etienne

[Steven Ragatz]

[quote]What I find most appalling about this event is that it not only encourages plagerism, but seeks to legitamize it. They want to get as many people up on stage ripping off our fore(head) fathers like Butterflyman, Bob Knickerson, Raspyni's, Karmazov's etc almost to say: "see look, everyone does it so it's ok!" Or just as bad, they will look at other jugglers who later acheive success and mutter to themselves "Well, he's not original. I saw him in Arcata..."
<hr></blockquote>

I wouldn't read too much into the event organizer's designs on "legitimizing" plagiarism. I would highly doubt if the issue were really relevant to them, or if they were intending to take such a position. More likely than not, it is simply a gimmick that they dreamed up to make their event fun and different for them. To my mind, the real issue that they bring up isn't about plagiarism, but the difference between performing and showing off. "See, I can do it too." isn't very interesting to me. After all, who would want to go see a cover band over the real thing?

[quote]
I also think it takes just as much energy to steal as it does to create. You have to go out, watch the act, remember / write down what they said, commit it to memory etc.
<hr></blockquote>

Naw. It is much faster to copy something than create it. Creation isn't a straight path, whereas mimicking is. That's what is so enticing about plagiarism.

Steven Ragatz

[Lynneski]

<...rustle...rustle...rustle...*Thunk*...dust...du st...ahem>

It's good I keep this old soapbox around, since it seems to get called into service more frequently than I'd wish...

I'm not even going to address the laziness and ethics of stealing another creator's material, as I think those arguements *should* be obvious (that they're not is testament to a dearth of good primary school teachers in the past couple of decades).

No, for the moment, I'm just going to look at the economic side of things. Performing someone else's material is taking bread off their table. Period.

In the most basic sense, a hack doesn't have legal rights to the work. But even if the thievery isn't done directly (getting hired for a gig that should have gone to the creator), it impacts the creator economically. It usually means someone is getting paid less to present the work(reducing its value). It exposes the work to more audience (rendering it stale more quickly). It makes the work less unique (making it less marketable).

The most prevalent example of this kind of unfettered pilferage can be seen in the huge trade that is done in *tribute* and clone bands. An entire industry has arisen to sell the likes of "Shania Twin" and "The Buck-Naked Ladies" to county fairs and third tier concert halls.

The "justification" I've most oft heard is that it's not stealing work from the creators, since these venues could not afford to hire the originators anyways. Wow. I'm gobsmacked by the notion of someone saying "Hey, I love whatcha do so much, that I'm going to pay someone else less money to perform your material less well."

These *tribute* acts are steadily taking gigs from the emerging artists and up-and-coming bands who used to rightly play those right-sized venues for those right-sized fees. Bookers for those gigs feel they take less of a gamble spending their money on "almost-known" names.

The only marginally valid justification I've agreed with is when the creator of the work is dead. Performing their work is then a means to keep their work alive and current, provided its done with talent and dignity.

Covering another creator's work is a horse of a different colour. A cover is usually a variation, an arrangement, an interpretation - a rendition that brings some new creation to the work (with appropriate licence fees paid to ASCAP/SOCAN, of course).

Johnny Cash brought a whole new depth to NineInchNails. The "Pink Floyd Experience" invested "thousands of hours" trying to sound exactly like the original members. What might they have wrought if all those hours had gone into making something of their own?

Lets reflect this experience back on our own industry. Leaving aside the fact that a line-stealing hack usually delivers them with less panache than the originator (for the record, Oliver, following the line "Does anybody have a lighter?" with "Does anybody have a nice watch?" not only ruins the symmetry but also redundantly tips the gag), said hack takes bread out of all street artist's mouths.

The more interchangeable street shows there are, the more jaded audiences are. Jaded audiences show in the hat.

The more interchangeable street shows there are, the more festivals there are that refuse to pay decent fees or travel. Why pay to bring something in when there's something similar right here.

The more interchangeable street shows there are, the more one pitch looks like another, one festival looks like another. The less unique draws less notice, less promotion, less audience, less sponsorship.

You want to pay tribute to an artist's creation? Let it inspire you to create something yourself.

Lynne"don't get me started"ski

[Thom]

WOW!

Well said. I couldn't agree more.

Cheers,

Thom

[ALAKAZAM]

Immitation,appropriation,origination.
It's okay to nick the essence of a joke [what makes it funny] and rewrite it so it works for your character,it's not okay to do the lines word for word and in the same order for the same routines.That's stealing. [also by rewriting i don't mean changing one word]
Simply put,if the joke you stole does not get the same kind of laugh as it's originator,you aren't saying it funny,therefore you shouldn't be saying it,but if it works for your character and you've made it you own [maybe by adding a tag line] then it's okay.
The worst thing about it is,sharing a pitch with some shit head who just delivered your line badly then you gotta go out there and NOT say your own line cause it's been done.
That sucks.
See ya'll
AL

[UCO]

Give credit where credit is due
I think it is safe to say that most of use are guilty of nicking a line a gag whatever. Building a original show from the start is tough and the originality will come through experience; In theory;
I think as long as it is not a direct rip off of someones routine this is wrong, but a twist or something brings a new addition to the same thing.
Hands in the pockets hurts when you clap
My show is exciting I know but I would hate to stop it cause you got hurt clapping;; Motion motion
Ha
Every where that there is street this line is used.or a variation
Who gets the credit?
Where is the standard line come in?
With so many performers who juggle do magic or tennis rackets what have you
These routines are built from experience and imitation with twists
Being my third season and the training pants are coming off; just now I have mostly a original show, that works
but I got alot of advice to imitate the things that work until you are use to beinging comfortable to hold a crowd:
This does not mean keep it and use it forever. and call it yours
And I agree with Al try not to use the same line at the same pitch you stole the line from this I think just looks tacky and causes all kinds of problems;
Anyway this is my first day to play in montreal; Iam scared
Ice breaker

[em]

lines are stolen because they are seen to work. It is entirely based on fear of taking a risk, and when people are busking and have to have a show that "works" to make money, artistic risk taking doesn't seem so attractive.

Except that if you take the risk eventually it pays off and you become "original". we used to intersperce our ballroom show with stock lines but i got pissed off with them so we phased them out as we grew more confident and our material grew stronger...sometimes the odd one gets in like a mosquito in a tent and it always makes me itch...

There are many stock lines that have been going round for years ( even as far back to when my mum and dad busked 30 years ago) and if they need to be used to start learning the street then so be it, but when a performer is confident enough...be encouraged to write your own and stay one step ahead of joke thiefs by continuing to be creative! OR make the work so distinctive that it wouldn't fit with anyone elses act! Anyone sat and really listened to Lee "The puppet Guy" Zimmermans Chatter? it's brilliant, unique and entirely unthievable...

there thats my bit too.

[Butterfly Man]

Debra Jo might not think so but ...

Lee Zimmerman is a comedic wonder ... I spent about 9 hours with him in a car once and I never stopped laughing ... of course, the atmosphere he brought with him might have had something to do with it.

P.S. Let the audience write your material for you ... leave a space for them to participate and they will ... all you must do is record your show AND then go back over it ... write that stuff down & remember it ... the difference between an amateur and a professional is a $1.69 notebook.

[jester]

let the audience yes indeed

I totally agree butterfly man. My show has a very original angle, but many of the lines have come from audience members over the last few years. Sometimes they weren't even trying to be funny, just having fun.

It has taken a long time to get it like this and it improves all the time.

My current favorite came from a lad of about 14 who walked up to me on my stilts and said.

"You must be mad. You should see a shrink."

Beats "whats the weather...." doesn't it.