Circus Party (A.K.A. "Exposure" Gigs Discussion)

**Mat Ricardo** · Feb-27-2006, 10:21 AM

YAY! EXPOSURE!!!

Jeez...

**Evan Young** · Feb-27-2006, 11:12 AM

I would go if I were in the Area; there's no reason to be a snob about it. It's a local TV show, of course the best thing they can offer is exposure. It's not like it's a huge national show making millions in add revenue telling you to work for free. I would do it just for the high quality video clip.

**Mat Ricardo** · Feb-27-2006, 11:16 AM

Getting paid to do your job isn't being a snob.

**Evan Young** · Feb-27-2006, 01:15 PM

True, but the previous comment you posted was being a snob.

it's a local TV show wanting to highlight local artists. Doing a free gig for these people probabley isn't going to lower the value of a professional performer, and it could be a great way for a young performer to get some clips for a promo video. There is no point in posting nasty comments that might discourage other people from posting gigs on this forum. The post was not addressed to you, it's a bullitin. Do you look in the newspaper and reply to every personal or classified ad and tell to tell them that they aren't what you are looking for?
Posting snub comments to point out a gig that is potentially lieing or has a bad history is okay; snub comments about gigs that are below your price range is not okay.
this is a public forum and you bill yourself as a gentleman Juggler. I have had clients check P. Net archives to research my character, and I thank my lucky stars they didn't read everything.

**Mat Ricardo** · Feb-27-2006, 01:35 PM

Ok, you're wrong, and here's why.

My original post wasn't snobbish, it was sarcastic.

As for my second post, to point out that professional performers work for money isn't snobbish, it's obvious. It's what being professional means.

You're right, there's no point in posting nasty comments. That's why I didn't. If you seriously think that a little sarcastic remark is being nasty, then you have lived a very happy and secluded life.

You mention that the post wasn't addressed to me, when of course it was. It was intended to be read by the members of this board of which I am one.

Do I respond to newspaper adverts telling them that I'm not what they're looking for? No, and I didn;t do that here. I do, however, respond to times when I feel the media has misjudged the way street performers as a profession operate, as I did here.

I'm not sure what you mean by "snub comments". You mention that it's not ok to post a reply to a gig that it below my price range? I wasn't aware that you made the rules.

As for your last comment about billing myself as a gentleman juggler and having people search p-net to research your character.. Seriously? I can only imagine how little work an agency must have that they can spend time trawling p-net to "research your character". Frankly if an agency reads my post and decides not to book me because I get pissed off about yet another gig paying nothing but offering exposure, then I'm fine with that. In fact, I welcome it. Don't worry about me, I do ok.

If I offended you, I'm very sorry. But I really don't see how I did.

I've been doing this for a little shy of twenty years and I know I'm not the only person who lets out a deep sigh whenever a gig offers "exposure". Yes, it might be good for a young performer who needs a video, but this is a board for professional performers who work for money and should already have videos.

I have no desire to start one of those pathetic childish internet arguments, I'm sure you don't either. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, I won't chastise you for yours if you pay me the same respect.

**Evan Young** · Feb-27-2006, 02:34 PM

"I've been doing this for a little shy of twenty years and I know I'm not the only person who lets out a deep sigh whenever a gig offers "exposure". Yes, it might be good for a young performer who needs a video, but this is a board for professional performers who work for money and should already have videos."

What?!!! who told you that?

I was frequenting the boards before I was pro, I'm still getting my feet wet, and I know others in the same boat. I don't think this is just a green room for people who have hit their prime and are now jaded. Lots of us are looking for career development from the ground up.
I know that "exposure" is a joke, but widen your scope a little. This guy in TV needs a couple of performers at his low level event. I'm a performer in need a couple of good TV cameras at some of my street shows for a new festival promo video. If I lived in his area I would call him and try to make a deal, he might be up for it!
If you make sarcastic remarks to people who are posting gigs it will discourage people from posting gigs! So please don't. I'm serious. I'm offended because I see a potentially posotive opourtunity for someone and it would suck if others were discouraged from posting. Seriously, just don't do it! Go to the "blah blah blah" section and post on the thread "rant here".

You're not the first one to post these remarks, and I'm not the first one to get mad about it.

**Mat Ricardo** · Feb-27-2006, 02:44 PM

If my sarcastic remarks discourage people from posting shit gigs, then that's just peachy with me, cupcake.

If I was putting together a tv show that was to feature circus people, I would budget for cameras, a director, producer, runners, sound guys, etc etc etc and CIRCUS PEOPLE. Nobody else on this list would take treated as an afterthough and left out of a budget, and nor should we.

If you didn't know this, well now you do. Happy to help.

It's really, really not rocket surgery.

**Jim** · Feb-27-2006, 08:30 PM

Cool it.

(This thread was started in the GIG OPPORTUNITIES forum, but I thought the discussion fit better here.)

Ok guys. You both make valid points.

However, Mat, I discourage people from posting editorial responses to posts WITHIN the gig opportunities forum. If you want to have a debate about "exposure" gigs, I suggest we take this discussion over to the "CLIENT/AGENCY/AGENT ISSUES" Forum. If you really want to tell the person who posted the thread how you feel about their "gig" please reply directly to them by email OR start a new thread in the above mentioned forum.

I really think it's important to keep the GIGS forums free of controversy amongst ourselves. It just doesn't look professional. I say we should DEFINITELY have the discussion, but please take it to an appropriate thread.

I am also a 15+ year professional performer and I tend to turn down these type of "exposure" gigs, but this poster seems well-intentioned. There are definitely a huge amount of people reading these forums who need the "exposure" and video clips and it's perfectly fine to take a job like this if you actually want it. There is a way to "educate" clients like this about paid vs. non-paid gigs, but a snarky reply isn't the way to do it. We just come off as looking ungrateful. I totally hear you, Mat. I just think there's a better place to discuss this than in front of the other PAYING clients who browse this forum and may actually want to hire you someday.

**Mr.Taxi Trix** · Feb-27-2006, 09:30 PM

I'm in a rare place on this thread, that of agreeing with both of you. One would think this would stop me from voicing a reply, but, well, no such limitations for me. So I'll just mention that I just lost to a magician at air hockey, then whomped him at Miss Pac Man. I feel pretty good about that. Carry on!

**Peter Voice** · Feb-28-2006, 05:02 AM

Perhaps taking the word "Gigs" out of the catergory title and calling it "Other Opportunities" would solve the problem.

To me the word "Gig" does imply a paid engagment.

Mind you, it does not exclude an unpaid show either.

**Steven Ragatz** · Mar-01-2006, 02:51 AM

Money isn't the only reason to accept a professional gig. I have never believed what qualifies a performance opportunity as being a "professional" one is not tied to being paid - there are plenty of reasons to want to perform for a client other than a paycheck.

And no, I do not feel that we need to "educate" anyone else on how they should try to run their business. If you don't want the gig, then simply issue a thanks-but-no-thanks reply and move on. If you do want the gig, then do it in spite of what others say.

Anyone should feel free to post gig requests on the forum for whatever the conditions of the agreement might be.

Steven Ragatz

**Evan Young** · Mar-01-2006, 10:47 AM

for the record

This client read some of my P. Net posts to check up on me before hiring me. http://www.milledgevillemainstreet.com/ She told me so at the event.
A while back, Steven suggested that clients would read these forums and make judgements about us, and I thought he was full of it at the time....

**Steven Ragatz** · Mar-01-2006, 08:47 PM

and I thought he was full of it at the time....

Yes. I seem to get quite a lot of that around here.

In the end I think that Jim did the right thing, and given the situation, just moved the commentary posts to another more appropriate discussion thread.

It seems reasonable if someone wants, or needs, to take the position where they don't accept gigs unless they were explicitly paid for them. It also seems reasonable that they discuss this with a prospective client who is trying to get them to attend their event. But we all need to remember that one person's business policy is not universally adopted by everyone and that each of us has different priorities and reasons to accept or decline gigs.

Good manners and a civil and professional tone will keep prospective clients returning to the site with other opportunities and help to not scare off new clients from thinking that the site is just filled with more hateful Internet blather. Sure, these posts may not pan out into anything, but I've always thought that even a poor opportunity to perform was better than no opportunity at all!

Steven Ragatz - As full of it as ever.

**Daniel Zindler** · Mar-06-2006, 12:27 AM

I don't see what the big deal is! My father is a doctor. He also volunteers his time for those less fortunate and for exposure, and he's been working for about 40 years. People don't just do exposure work in the entertainment industry, it also includes many other industry including doctors and lawyers. However, I don't think he would just volunteer his time for a CBS Executive (there has to be a purpose.

Circus Party (A.K.A. "Exposure" Gigs Discussion)

Circus Party (A.K.A. "Exposure" Gigs Discussion)

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