contract line item

[Rachel Peters]

Yes. This is just my assumption (because I haven't asked every woman), but I have a feeling that -prude or not- far more women feel slightly violated by that gag than they let on. They play along because they don't want to ruin the party.
Sub-sub-topic for a feature length documentary, perhaps??
Getting back closer to the forum thread though, Etienne's twist on it is cute one.

-rp

[le pire]

Hey Alfredo,

Yeah I remember seeing JoJo the clown talk about the charges brought up on him. He picked a 12-14 year old girl in a shopping mall who was with other 12-14 year old girls. And he was in full clown make up. Way to go Bozo. Jojo, or whatever. Dirty clowns.

"The Kiss" gag, like many pieces of comic material is a risky bit and as perfomers we have to pick and choose our material to make it appropriate for the audience that we are actually in front of.

One of the Ringling guys, EZ, or Tuba or Toto, I can't remember which, told about how he uses the "kiss" bit if and when he does it. First, he picks an old woman, who is with other old women. Never an old woman who is with her kids or grand kids, because then she is a MATRON and must be respected. When she is with her peers it's different.

(side note: I used to be a waiter in a restaurant in Paris that catered to British tour buses. When ever their was a group of grannies, they all grabbed my ass when ever I passed by. Old British women, when all together and in a foreign country have to be the randiest group of people on the planet.)

Also, by using an old woman, he is breaking a social taboo that says older women are unattractive. If he feels the SLIGHTEST unwillingness on the part of the volunteer or senses that the audience would consider him a pervert - he doest not do the gag. That's the important part -- having the experience and sensitivity to know your audience and where THEY draw the line.

Rachel draws lines for a living... hmmmmm...


etienne

[Rachel Peters]

Thanks. I fully concur. Perception is the hugest of assets --nay, prerequisites.

Originally posted by le pire


Rachel draws lines for a living... hmmmmm...


etienne

Yeah. I suppose it just comes naturally to me.

[fettucinibrother]

The cheek kiss gag continued...

Hey Etienne,
Great points you bring up. Especially the last sentence of the last paragraph. That pretty much sums it up.
Ah yes, so "Just Joey" (Bozo, Jojo , whatever...very funny) must have taken the story on the Ringling CC grads list. There are probably a number of you folks out here that are on that list. In which case, you probably know more about the story than I. Yes, Dirty Clowns...
Funny you should also mention EZ (or Toto or Tuba...very funny) in the same post. I just worked with him yesterday at an NBA game. I got him a gig here in Charlotte, doing pre-game entertainment at the Bobcats game, as a balloon folder (or as we call it, torquing rubber).
Ciao for now,
Alfredo

[Stephon]

If I may play devil's advocate for a moment-

I've seen the gag used many times, and I've used it myself a couple. Not once have I seen a performer assault the volunteer; no groping, no tongue, no open mouth.

We are talking about a chaste peck on the lips!

How is this a "violation"? At worst, it's an "ok, you got me".

Is it really that much more significant than a kiss on the cheek? Is it because the volunteer has entered into a "contract", but then the agreement is broken? If that's the case, about 80% of people who volunteer for any act would have grounds for complaint.

Obviously, no thinking person would pull it on a child. But I hardly think it qualifies (with an adult) as sexual harrassment.

Ok, let me have it.

[Rachel Peters]

here's lettin' you have it...

Now, I'm not all up in arms about this gag -- I hope you haven't read me like that.
I'll be the... um... angel's advocate.
I was thinking along those lines too before -- that it's no big deal, it's just a peck on the lips -- but though it's small, I do think it is still a bit of a violation. Take it out of the performance context and picture someone just randomly running up to me on the street and giving me an unexpected peck on the lips? That would never be acceptable.
Granted, the volunteer has agreed to give him a casual kiss on the cheek, but take it out of the performance context again, and picture someone agreeing to, say, shake a stranger's hand, and then the stranger comes at her with a kiss.
Yes, it's sort of a breach of contract. It's something stolen.
Something more important -- and generally considered more intimate -- than a shake of the hand, or a pat on the shoulder, or even a kiss on the cheek.
I remember when I was a kid, there was an old man who always insisted that I hug him. I would put out my hand to shake his hand, and he would completely ignore it, push past my arm, and hug me. I felt very violated. But it was no big deal, right? It was just an innocent hug. I had a prof in college who would do the same. I was an adult, but I still felt very, very icky. ...But it's just a simple hug! I suppose I ahd the choice to say, "screw you!" to him and walk away, but there are so many in-the-moment factors when you're on the spot like that... I would find myself cringing, putting on a smile, and going on my way... feeling like an idiot for not having done anything. But the fact that I didn't do anything doesn't change the how inappropriate his actions were.
What may be no big deal to the performer may be a huge deal to the volunteer. You just don't know where they've come from or what a peck on the lips may mean to them. The simple fact that they're an adult doesn't mean much to me.
Not everyone is so casual. I don't go kissing my friends on the lips... I'm not going to kiss a stranger, if I can help it.
That's all. And I'm not sure that's something you can perceive with good street intuition. How could you tell something like that?

ok. so let ME have it.

-rp

[Evan Young]

I use my girlfreind as a planted volounteer when I can, and I use the gag with her, but only when the show is going well. I've never used it on anyone else.

Etienne's presentation of the joke is really funny because he tells her about the gag twice before he does it. Makes a joke about dirty clowns and stuff. It's really good character stuff, and when she falls for it the third time it's just such a killer pay off. He told me that he doesn't allways use the gag for various reasons that are mostly decided on the fly.

I have felt in the past like I've ruined a couple's first date by flirting real hard with my volounteer. It sucks because if they are a secure couple there is a lot of really great interaction you can explore in front of the audience, but if they arn't it just ruins their date. So there is a judgement call you have to make while you are on the spot.... I've come up with some systems for volonteer selection, but they aren't fool proof. Using a planted volounteer is the best system I've come up with, but she isn't allways there. Sometimes I just pick a guy and have a different interaction with him, but it doesn't build my character as much.

Soo, whatever. I don't think this has really added anything; but I do get the impression that some performers try to be sensitive to individuals and audiences, and some performers just try to do the show they want to do every time.

[le pire]

not the kiss, but related

I remember at a Motionfest a loooooong time ago, David Smith did a whip routine and he had Marianne (from the Jokesters) as his volunteer. I really enjoyed his act and he put original jokes and character into a stock premise (whipping a target out of a volunteers hand).

On of his gags was that for a "blindfold" he placed a paper bag over Marianne's head and drew a smiley face on it. It got a nice laugh and Marianne (being a performer herself) played it up and also got a fews laughs herself.

All in all, I thought it was well done and he made the bit his own. Then came the evaluations...

Several of the women in the audiece pounded Dave for his insensitivity towards women for placing a bag over his volunteers head. Accused him of doing the Taliban's work for them (think burka) and brought up all sorts of politics that frankly I didn't get from the act at all.

My feeling was "this is a MotionFest crowd" and they were going to be a LOT more sensitive to this kind of thing then, say, a comedy club crowd.

It was a funny bit, and I hope he didn't scrap it all together. But the lesson to be learned there is the same as "the kiss" gag. Know thy audience.

You're right Stephon, it's just a peck on the lips. And all Dave did was make his volunteer wear a mask (there was a smiley face drawn on the bag)... but that's not what people perceived.

Perception is reality.


etienne

[Rachel Peters]

Etienne,
But unlike the kiss gag, he knew that Marianne was ok with this paper bag joke, right?

I don't care what the REST of the audience thinks about the kiss, I care about what the volunteer who gets it thinks.

-rp

[le pire]

Re: here's lettin' you have it...

Originally posted by Rachel Peters
Take it out of the performance context and picture someone just randomly running up to me on the street and giving me an unexpected peck on the lips? That would never be acceptable.

That is EXACTLY why it is acceptable on stage. Comedy and theatre is the place to break social taboos and customs. Most of what you find funny on stage or screen is something that flys in the face of convention.

No risk, no reward.

You are comparing your experiences with REAL LIFE icky men to a comedian (a different kind of icky man) doing a gag about something every 5 year old kid finds icky (kissing).

I'm not saying you're wrong. As a performer it is up to me to recognize this. That doesn't mean I not going to take risks in that show, because I am. I'll just take different risks.


But unlike the kiss gag, he knew that Marianne was ok with this paper bag joke, right?

She was not a plant, and did not know ahead of time about the gag. She went along with it on stage and played it up. I don't remember if she said anything afterward, but she may have because once the first woman said "I was offended" it became "Hey! He's a mysogenist! Dog pile on Dave!" and he just got pounded. It was like "pack mentality."

I don't care what the REST of the audience thinks about the kiss, I care about what the volunteer who gets it thinks.

I care about both.



etienne

[Rachel Peters]

Re: Re: here's lettin' you have it...

I'm not saying you're wrong. As a performer it is up to me to recognize this. That doesn't mean I not going to take risks in that show, because I am. I'll just take different risks.

----------------------------

Alright. I think that your volunteer's okay-ness with the kiss gag is a hard one to recognize. But kudos to you if you can pick up on it.
...just please don't take that particular risk on me.

(And the social taboos that are entertaining in theatre and screen -- they're practiced and agreed upon by the participants.)

----------------------------


I don't care what the REST of the audience thinks about the kiss, I care about what the volunteer who gets it thinks.

I care about both.

----------------------

After I wrote that I realized the same. Yes.

It's not something I'll argue till I'm blue in the face or anthing. I don't want to pick this little gag as a battle to fight. Just laying out my reasons for not liking it, and explaining why I WILL refuse if I have it attempted on me. ....smiling and politely, but I will.
I do think that a lot of women don't like it.

[le pire]

Re: here's lettin' you have it...

Originally posted by Rachel Peters
And I'm not sure that's something you can perceive with good street intuition.

Years of experience and careful study of body language and are the tools I use.

etienne

[le pire]

Let me know the next time you're having one of your parties where people do what's taboo.

I have this great gag...





etienne

[Rachel Peters]

Social Conventions, Schmocial Conventions.

HA ha! ...i was just thinking about that. THAT may be ONE acceptable time, because I'm prepared for crazy. But just expect me pull out my own socially taboo gags in response.

...and as if I would ever -from this point on- agree to kiss any comedian on the cheek!!

(and take in mind that I'm smiling as I type this... it's not AS big a deal to me as it's come out sounding.)

[scot]

rachel;
when is the last time you've contributed to a thread?