Help me start glass walking/bed of nails etc

[Doctor Eric]

Actually, science can only prove itself, and it's motives are suspect.

[martin ewen]

Science can only prove itself because all outside it cannot be proven and relies on faith.
Science and faith are both big things and to attribute motive to 'A systemized knowledge derived from observation.' is in my opinion just a tad harder than attributing a motive to ' an unquestioning belief'
still live and let live I say, personally I like science because i can question it and I like dictionarys because they help me with what words actually mean.

[martin ewen]

Speaking of science and on a less esoteric level.
This is not directly related to nails and glass but fire and all the messy smelly fluids that go with it.
Quite often kero and petrol and the like take a few washes to get rid of the smell on your skin.
I'm serious..Try rubbing peanut butter on your hands or face or whatever instead of soap and washing that off.
The oil breaks stuff down or something and leaves you with a clean fresh, slightly peanutty smell first time.

[Todd]

Martin rocks.
On the other side of this, Eric, I'm not mad.
What I do want to point out is that because this is a forum the ideas that get posted here are, for the most part, an informal debate.
(with the exception of the Blah-blah section which was set up to just mentall jerk-off on the net. Which would explane the stick floors)
With the informal debate setting in mind, sure have your opinion, but be ready to back it up with more than just "I'm allowed to have my opinion". That is sort of the trump card which stops all of us from learning form others, and is used all too often in our world today. I jumped on your post because your opinion is valid (very valid) but I wanted you to back it up better than "Hooey" and "It is how I feel"
Also, we live in an "end-gaining" culture which looks at debate as a "win or lose" situation, which it is not. We should use these forums for more than just "I feel this way" or "HEY, come watch me perform this weekend at the.....". If we open ourselves up to having our opinions questioned and challenged , we all might learn more about our work and find way that we never thought of to do the work. I'm also siding with Martin on this one in the support of science (in my case the science of debate), because it can be questioned and challenged. Our "faith" or belif systems are a choice. We choose to think one way or another, either through education or ignorance. We (all of us, myself included) should open our faith up to be challenged and then we can take a hard look at what makes up our faith and why we chose to make that our faith.
(Faith here in the larger meaning of our beleif systems albeit religion, performing, child rearing, education etc.)
So, go ahead, post an opinion, but when you do realize you open yourself up to have those opinions challenged.
I could have said your post was a bunch of hooey, and then where would we be. I insted went ahead and tryed to back up my opinion with reasons for why I feel the way I do.

Also, MArtin is right, peanut butter is the best stuff, or keep a small bottle of peanut oil handy. There is something to be said though for smushing peanut butter between your fingers

Onward

[Doctor Eric]

Ahem.
Now let me start by saying that all you say is quite true. And, as a matter of fact, is not in question. My point, made (but odviously not quite clearly) about 5 posts ago, is that the Had Matter's thread asking for advice and schooling is not the place for another one of these long-winded semantics debates, however, I would be perfectly willing to debate semantics all day long face to face, Todd, since I am planning on working Daytona for July/August, I may very well be able to pay you a visit.

[The Had Matter]

Ok well- several things to address

1 I apologise for sparking a huge debate on the subject of real - not real. I want to do the 4 nails because I personally think it looks neat (any tips on this one todd?).
I am somewhat mad - (been practiceing my kickflips and 180 board spins on the rola bola today) - I think I'm going to learn to do the glass walk both the "real" and "not real" way and then try to decide on which to do depending on how much I cut myself.

2 Just for the record - (sorry martin) I'm doing a Physics degree and you do just have to have faith in a lot of things - at the cutting edge some of it is just "well it works and we think it's coz... um...er...magic" gravity being a good example. it works. it's predictable but we're not sure how the force works - (I just really hope it never fails)

3 well said todd. I'm bored of the flame wars (even though I've tried to stay out of them all) - this place is (in my mind) for free exchange of ideas, tips and techniques within the busking/sideshow/general performer industry

4 17 swords - impressive! I've decided not to go down that route nor do I fire-breathe these days - I'm too bothered about what it does to me. (not wishing to cause offence here) I figure cuts, breaks and bruises heal sooner or later but parafin poisoning won't and my kneck is damaged enough already.

5 Ok stephon - thank you I found out that they're £20 a shot and still have sharp edges so that's that one out the window.


Ok - I've been thinking of smashing a sheet of plane glass then walking on that as I could do that on site without having to remove any of the pieces then thereby removing another part of the act that suggests that it's a trick. any opinions?

Thank you all once again - Keep throwing knowlege at me, I am learning slowly but surely.

<img src="graemlins/jester.gif" border="0" alt="[jester]" />

[Scot Free]

[quote]Originally posted by The Had Matter:
<strong>Ok well- several things to address
(been practiceing my kickflips and 180 board spins on the rola bola today)
<img src="graemlins/jester.gif" border="0" alt="[jester]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

REeeeeeaaaaallly?????????????
Kick-flips eh? I'd like to see that!
I've been working on board spins for years, I still
wont put 'em in my show 1. way too sketchy still and @. way too fucking scary.

I'll add that I agree that "Science" requires faith.
Science seeks closure, it seeks to answer questions but it only ever gives us probabilities. Science has not answered anything, only given best guesses that later become outdated when faith in new instruments replaces faith in old intstruments.

[Doctor Eric]

Matter...
Pane glass is a thousand times more dangerous than bottle(tempered) glass, but, if you can do it, I'm all for it! BTW, thanks for having the knowledge to say something I can never exactly get across!

[The Had Matter]

Eric - I'm investigating a pane glass which i believe may be tempered - I've seen some broken and it looks more walkable than a bottle- I'll investigate some more and let you know. As to having knowlege - that's doubtfull [img]smile.gif[/img] Thank you for being so helpfull.

Scot - I'd be happy to show you if we ever meet up.
My thing is adrenaline stuff and balanceing (pref together) - it stops being scary really quickly.


Kickflips on the rolla are HARD - I have not got very far yet. The spins by comparison are a doddle.

I think if I can get enough spring in the board (old skate deck perhaps) then any number of spins and flips are possible.

My current fave trick is a 180 jump onto the rolla then continueing the spin with the board on the tube so that I do 360 in total - Looks impressive and didn't take too long to get.

Spinning the board underneath you when you jump into the air is trickier than spinning with it. It's mostly mind over fear - the worst that can happen is a few bruises. (I wear shin pads when practiceing as you will hit your self in the shins lots)

other tricks I'm putting in the show are:

Transfer from board to walking on tube and back again
various running and jumping mounts
A transfer from balanceing on tube to board having someone throw the board in.
perhaps ultimately unicycling on tube etc.

I'm kind of hoping to turn this sort of thing into a trademark act as It serves to seporate the stuff I do from everyone else.

That said - if you want to I'll e-mail you some more detailed instructions as I figure them out.


<img src="graemlins/jester.gif" border="0" alt="[jester]" />

[ 05-16-2002: Message edited by: The Had Matter ]</p>

[Pyromancer]

Ouch! Were we having a debate about (supposedly) dangerous tricks or about debates itself? Why can't we just stick to the matter, even if it's not peanut butter?
Speaking about peanut butter or peanut oil: will olive oil have a similar effect? At least it smells better. And don't worry, I'll try it out anyway.
And about real and not real: ofcourse we aren't superhumans. I'd be the last one to state that. And ofcourse, most tricks are relatively easy to learn. And ofcourse one has to do his or her best to really get hurted. Ofcourse it's the show that makes the impression.
But that won't take away the fact, that some of the tricks mentioned in this thread are potentially dangerous. And with an attitude that says 'I can't go wrong, it's just the performance' you are very likely to hurt yourself sooner or later, just because you are ignorant about what you are doing. How many people get hirt in the easy trick that we all perform on a daily basis: walking? If you don't look were you walk, you might trip over...
I don't care about how many times someone performed a (supposedly) dangerous trick. Any time the trick is performed, the performer should be just as aware as he or she was the first time. Much of the danger is about the dangerous assumption that the trick is performed so many times, that you hardly can get wrong. Because you still can.
Gradually, you overcome your fear and step by step, you come closer to the edge and if you are confident enough to cross the line, you will fall down. And particulary in the case of fire: it's an animal, an beast that you may try to tame, but if you show your back, it will bite. For sure.
Too many performes, pyrotechnicians etc. get ignorant over the years and sooner or later they will make a fatal mistake.
The show may get better when you look for the edge, the thin line between hurting yourself and not. I found myself coughing blood from the pneumonia I suffered twice from firebreathing. It was my own bloody mistake, but it felt more real than I ever expected. Firebreathing is relatively easy, but there are definately some real aspacts regarding health and fire-hazard not to be dismissed.

How easy the trick may be, always stick to a certain awareness of the potential dangers...

[HiveQueen]

Because I'm sick of studying protein synthesis, I'd like to point out the great popularity of the Monty Python / Spanish Inquisition / Comfy Chair bit. Sure, there's great money to be made in pain. Witness rolfing, BDSM, stilletto heels, and Ouchy the Clown (www.ouchytheclown.com).

If the risk / pain is your thing, fine, have fun with it. Some people will pay to watch you bleed, others will be disgusted and leave. If you don't like hurting, DON'T. Do a show where, with great lead-up and to-do, you walk COMPLETELY BAREFOOT across a patch of GRASS. (You can sprout sod in a lightweight foam base; they use it for rooftop gardens.) Or do glass, but use safety glass. Hell, use sugar cubes, use a thermoplastic polymer. (If an eight-year-old with an attitude runs across it, set him on fire, shouting, "You want real?? How's that!? That real enough for you?!" It'll give the brat character.)

Half the people out there are going to think you're faking no matter what you do and the other half are truly impressed when you manage to juggle five balls while standing on only one foot*. Don't do something you're not comfortable with "for the audience," regardless of whether your discomfort comes from its being too dangerous or too safe. Find whatever it is that you enjoy doing and give a good show around that. If you can't, you're in the wrong business.

*Actual percentages may vary from those given.

I'll stop ranting now.

[Todd]

I've learned alot from Steve Rigatz on the nature of Net forums, and so I usually limit myself to 2 replies to a given topic, but I just had to ring in one last time.

Hive Queen, nicely said.

And Eric, why not discuss it here? To my mind we were having a constructive discussion on this topic. One that we can all get something from. Sure you can belittle my idea that we should be using the net for an exchange and debate of ideas as a dry "semantics" lesson, but I posted that because you branded my help as "Hooey" and then hid behind the very wimpy defensive argument of "It is my opinion stop picking on me"(not your words). I was also ,in my opinion, posting something to help as well, and was told it was "Hooey". I simply wanted to discuss the "super-human" or "performer" theorys of entertaining.
Again, if you dont want your ideas challenged, then dont post them.
For everyone else, I'm sorry if my long winded posts have annoyed.

Matter, I'm glad your question sparked this dicussion, so thanks for bringing it up and good luck on getting your bed of glass together.

Chao

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Todd ]</p>

[Doctor Eric]

"Why not post them here?"
Because that's not what Matter asked for, and it is his thread. Stop getting abusive Todd, you're acting like a fool. I have no defense, because I am not defensive. I have no reason to justify or defend my comments to you, and I won't have the argument here because I have heard it a thousand times before, and it is extremely boring. Especially for those not involved. If you want justification, then come see my show sometime, otherwise feel free to continue thinking that you are RIGHT. and I am WRONG. I never "hid" my statements about anything, and you were never told that you're statement's were hooey, because I was talking to matter. And, I was being nice when I said that, because immediately following my first perusal of your post, the first thing I said was "That's the biggest load of washed up carny bulldrek I have ever heard in my life." I meet those guys all the time, and if you want to waste that much time preparing for a stunt that can be done impromptu, then so be it. I personally think that if you are that scared, then you just shouldn't leave the house at all, but, then again, that's my opinion. Which, by the way, is not a defense, it is a realization that quite a few stubborn and arrogant people never really have. I do not argue with anyone that believes A) in the new flat-earth society known as "science" (try reading up a little on consensus reality, and where the scientific method fails miserably) or B) that they are "right". And, once again, no offense, it's just a road I have walked down before (typical magician attitude) and I prefer not to do so again via electronic posts. The nature of these bullettin boards leads quite easily to hurt ego's (yes, mine included) flame wars, and mindless sniping. All without ever having to see the other person's face. So, I say again, I would like to meet and talk with you, as I have respect for any self-respecting performer, I would like to see your show, and have a good time doing so, and if necessary, I would like to drag this argument down into the dirt for hours with you. I would just prefer to do it in an environment where, instead of just mindlessly insulting each other every couple of days, we could talk face to face and leave each other's presence with a warm feeling of mutual friendship. So don't bait me, because I have nothing to prove to you and it is completely immature and unprofessional. Just wait my friend. We can hash this stuff over and over again face to face.

[firegirl]

wow... all this theory... wow, i say.

fyi ~ thom britain does a really nifty glass walk routine... i'm suprised that he hasn't logged in his input yet.

to both todd & eric... you both are amazing performers (todd's show was one of the first variety acts i EVER saw... one that made me interested enough in the art to badger brian 'broon' howard into teaching me something about fire eating ... eric's troup is one of the most realistic & well reputed shows in nola... btw, eric... sorry i missed the show last nite - i had a date.) with different perspectives.

personally, i will always take the 'safe' route to anything... but, i admire anyone who really puts themselves in danger for the entertainment of ordinary people (who couldn't do the stunts either the safe or dangerous way.)

as a fire eater - and we all know that once you figure out the 'science' or 'gimmick' to it, is about as dangerous as drinking a hot cup of coffee - i agree with todd in saying that showmanship is key in any performance... you can stand on stage and pick your nose (which i've done) and, as long as you present it with style and stamina - your crowds will eat it up... (not the booger... ewwww.)

brooke hall (a man that i rarely credit with having taught me anything about performance) once said something really brilliant to me... it was: 'we are the giants in this world.'
meaning - we have to be larger than life, superhuman... the audiances don't give a sh*! about the 'science' behind fire eating, glass walking, sword swallowing or anything else we do on stage... what they care about is that they are seeing someone who is entertaining performing an stunt which they PERCEIVE that they, themselves, cannot do.

in the end - this is what makes me choose the safer gimmicked ways of doing my stunts... because, if my audiances really don't care if i'm in danger of hurting myself - why take the risk? (kudos to those who do...)

just call me 'wimp'girl -- if you must.

and, martin! i'm gonna have to try that peanut butter thing... tho' i've developed a strange love of the taste & smell of coleman... sort of an acquired thing... like enjoying martinis... (something else that brian 'broon' howard taught me...)

just my two cents...
~firegirl

btw ~ eric, you never answered my question about the sword swallow... do you know anyone who could help me learn this?

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: firegirl ]</p>

[Doctor Eric]

You asked a question about learning to swallow swords? I'm sorry, I didn't realize...
I hate it when people ask me this, because just recently a few of my friends hurt themselves seriously doing this. I'll tell you the horror stories first, then a quick lesson.
Two different friends of mine (who ironically, don't even know each other) were swallowing swords, one was highly experienced, the other new to the trade, but taught by Zamora the Torture King. Both, at one point or another, gagged on their swords, and both got serious infections deep in their throats, neither can swallow swords anymore, and one had to have a rather large cyst removed from her throat. The problem is, you don't find out that you messed up until much, much later, and if the infection has gotten far, it's possible that your life will be in danger.
Now, in my opinion, the best way to learn is to tie a button to a length of string, and swallow and bring it up 7-10 times a day. Give this at least two weeks to insure that each and every gag-reflex (as I hear, there are multiple gag buttons on the way down) is effectively conquered. DON'T rush yourself. Please. You can get hurt real bad and not know it (this is the bad part, getting hurt and knowing it is no big deal usually). I would also have a metal worker teach you how to properly care for a sword, as they are a bit tough to keep from rusting, plus, same metal worker can file that sucker down for you and make it real smooth. Now, as far as teachers go, Todd Robbins' sideshow school at Coney is a good place from what I hear, and Zamora is always willing to teach pretty girls how to sword-swallow(this is a thinly disguised warning btw...). And there are a few Swallowers on this board who can probably help also.
By the way, Frack is now working with us, and he is great, full of vinegar and self-taught. But the way he gags on that sword scares the hell out of me. Please all, wish the best for Frack.

One more thing. I apologize to Todd for my previous message coming off as a bit meaner than I intended it to be, I have no doubt of Todd's abilities as a performer. What annoys me is the unrelenting want of "backing up" of opinions, and the egotistical need for credentials. I've never asked for anyone else's, and I resent being asked for mine. It's childish. When I see someone post, I assume they are a performer, and at least have the slightest bit of a clue. I would ask for the same in return.

And, as to the reality debate, my personal theory is that you should believe in the things you do, or else they come off as soul-less(and, in reality, are empty and devoid of meaning). I don't think everyone should do dangerous stunts, and I have no problem with people who want to stay safe. But, art is a form of communication, not a mindless display of "Look what I can do". I do not consider the things that I do to be super-human, I just think that the human body is capable of anything that people set their minds to. My performance tries to convey to the general public my thoughts on consensus reality, and this is also consistent with the history of Fakirism and Sufism. More important than the "how" of these things is the "why".

In my opinion.

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Doctor Eric ]</p>